Detent Pins: Swaging the hole.

[Proctologically Violated©®]

Awl--

Yours truly is in fact making, from scratch, not a bad quick-release detent
locking pin--much like what you'd buy from MSC, as a part for my Greater
Folly. BD would be proud--shocked & unnerved, but proud, I'm sure.
These are locking (button in the back) as opposed to the tension-sprung ball
pins.

I've looked at a few to see how mfr's might be swaging the hole. I'm having
a miserable time w/ this, and am wondering if others have done this, or have
some ideas on this op.

The bunch I've bought/accumulated seem to be done as follows:
1. Nicked at the "top" of the arc, in one or two places
2. Swaged uniformly around, either raising the edge, or depressing it.

I've done #2, making a kind of "fishmouthed punch" to depress the edge
uniformly around.
BUT,
9 times out of ten, I have to insert a drill from the other side, and twist
by hand, to get adequate protrusion of the ball--really a pain.

For a 3/32 ball, I drill .096, and the punch is 3/16 steel, fishmouthed w/
the side of a 1/4" em (for a 1/4" pin, so that the punch edge "wraps around"
the pin), and then turned down to about .125 OD, so that the punch surface
is about .015 around the hole, uniformly.
Also, the punch is drilled for a 3/32 dowel (ground a little small), to fit
in the hole-to-be-swaged, for location.

In the past, I've also drilled, say, a .089 hole, and then drilled from the
other side w/ a .096 drill, just short of going thru, for the retaining
lip--you need great control in Z to do this effectively, however, AND you
don't (and cannot) get a uniform lip this way.

Altho I haven't done this yet, when I sort of get the procedure "right", I
will standardize it by dropping a known weight from a known height, for a
reproducible swage--unless it turns out that "drilling the lip" is a better
way to go, in my circumstance.

Greatly appreciate any input.
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll

[Proctologically Violated©®]

Well, BD would either be proud, or he'd turn white as a Klansmen in uniform,
screaming while running, Armageddon is here, Armageddon is here!!!!!!!
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll

Post by Proctologically Violated©®
Awl--
Yours truly is in fact making, from scratch, not a bad quick-release
detent locking pin--much like what you'd buy from MSC, as a part for my
Greater Folly. BD would be proud--shocked & unnerved, but proud, I'm
sure.
These are locking (button in the back) as opposed to the tension-sprung
ball pins.
I've looked at a few to see how mfr's might be swaging the hole. I'm
having a miserable time w/ this, and am wondering if others have done
this, or have some ideas on this op.
1. Nicked at the "top" of the arc, in one or two places
2. Swaged uniformly around, either raising the edge, or depressing it.
I've done #2, making a kind of "fishmouthed punch" to depress the edge
uniformly around.
BUT,
9 times out of ten, I have to insert a drill from the other side, and
twist by hand, to get adequate protrusion of the ball--really a pain.
For a 3/32 ball, I drill .096, and the punch is 3/16 steel, fishmouthed w/
the side of a 1/4" em (for a 1/4" pin, so that the punch edge "wraps
around" the pin), and then turned down to about .125 OD, so that the punch
surface is about .015 around the hole, uniformly.
Also, the punch is drilled for a 3/32 dowel (ground a little small), to
fit in the hole-to-be-swaged, for location.
In the past, I've also drilled, say, a .089 hole, and then drilled from
the other side w/ a .096 drill, just short of going thru, for the
retaining lip--you need great control in Z to do this effectively,
however, AND you don't (and cannot) get a uniform lip this way.
Altho I haven't done this yet, when I sort of get the procedure "right", I
will standardize it by dropping a known weight from a known height, for a
reproducible swage--unless it turns out that "drilling the lip" is a
better way to go, in my circumstance.
Greatly appreciate any input.
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll

[Will]

On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 10:05:54 -0500, "Proctologically Violated©®"

Post by Proctologically Violated©®
Well, BD would either be proud, or he'd turn white as a Klansmen in uniform,
screaming while running, Armageddon is here, Armageddon is here!!!!!!!
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll

Post by Proctologically Violated©®
Awl--
Yours truly is in fact making, from scratch, not a bad quick-release
detent locking pin--much like what you'd buy from MSC, as a part for my
Greater Folly. BD would be proud--shocked & unnerved, but proud, I'm
sure.
These are locking (button in the back) as opposed to the tension-sprung
ball pins.
I've looked at a few to see how mfr's might be swaging the hole. I'm
having a miserable time w/ this, and am wondering if others have done
this, or have some ideas on this op.
1. Nicked at the "top" of the arc, in one or two places
2. Swaged uniformly around, either raising the edge, or depressing it.
I've done #2, making a kind of "fishmouthed punch" to depress the edge
uniformly around.
BUT,
9 times out of ten, I have to insert a drill from the other side, and
twist by hand, to get adequate protrusion of the ball--really a pain.
For a 3/32 ball, I drill .096, and the punch is 3/16 steel, fishmouthed w/
the side of a 1/4" em (for a 1/4" pin, so that the punch edge "wraps
around" the pin), and then turned down to about .125 OD, so that the punch
surface is about .015 around the hole, uniformly.
Also, the punch is drilled for a 3/32 dowel (ground a little small), to
fit in the hole-to-be-swaged, for location.
In the past, I've also drilled, say, a .089 hole, and then drilled from
the other side w/ a .096 drill, just short of going thru, for the
retaining lip--you need great control in Z to do this effectively,
however, AND you don't (and cannot) get a uniform lip this way.
Altho I haven't done this yet, when I sort of get the procedure "right", I
will standardize it by dropping a known weight from a known height, for a
reproducible swage--unless it turns out that "drilling the lip" is a
better way to go, in my circumstance.
Greatly appreciate any input.
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll

some of the commercial detents use shouldered "button" instead of a
ball. Think of a stepped rod with a half round on the small end.

[J. Nielsen]

On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 09:54:45 -0500, "Proctologically Violated©®"

Post by Proctologically Violated©®
Greatly appreciate any input.

Turn a sharp edge (30 - 45 degree) on the front of the pins before waggin'
them with a flat punch. That way you'll get a more sharply defined rim.

[BottleBob]

Post by Proctologically Violated©®
Awl--
Yours truly is in fact making, from scratch, not a bad quick-release detent
locking pin--much like what you'd buy from MSC, as a part for my Greater
Folly.

PV:

Is there some overriding reason you can't use an existing detent
locking pin? CarrLane has quite an assortment.

http://www.carrlane.com/PressReleases/BallDetenPr.cfm

[Cliff]

Post by BottleBob
Is there some overriding reason you can't use an existing detent
locking pin? CarrLane has quite an assortment.

Fastener supply houses usually have a wider one at better prices
IIRC.

[Proctologically Violated©®]

Bottle,
Yeah,
1. geometrical/size constraints, 2. assthetics, and 3. bein cheap.

Altho, regarding (3), the ROI on *this* particular folly of mine will be,
oh, about 45 years.

Also, ito marketing, these pins are not all that cheap, and in some cases
quite a few could be in use in my Folly, depending depending, making doing
them in-house, and to exact spec, worthwhile. They sorta need yuppie appeal
(you know, $400 CalvinKlein fukn sunglasses'n'shit).
Also, they are coming out *really* nice, are a little original, and might be
the basis of a separate product line.

I think I might have solved at least some of the problem, apropos of some of
the comments here. I think trying to get the proper swage all around the
hole is a bit beyond my technical means right now, and may in fact be
unnecessary.
I think I'm going to kluge a punch whose tip is about 1/32 wide (1/3 the
diam of the hole), and in the shape of a "W", where the bottom points grab
the mat'l on either side of the high point on the pin barrel, and shove it
more sharply over.
I think in trying to swage it all the way around, I was "swelling" too much
material over too far *below* the surface of the barrel, limiting the ball's
protrusion--I think.
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll

Post by BottleBob

Post by Proctologically Violated©®
Awl--
Yours truly is in fact making, from scratch, not a bad quick-release detent
locking pin--much like what you'd buy from MSC, as a part for my Greater
Folly.

Is there some overriding reason you can't use an existing detent
locking pin? CarrLane has quite an assortment.
http://www.carrlane.com/PressReleases/BallDetenPr.cfm
--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

[john]

Post by Proctologically Violated©®
Bottle,
Yeah,
1. geometrical/size constraints, 2. assthetics, and 3. bein cheap.
Altho, regarding (3), the ROI on *this* particular folly of mine will be,
oh, about 45 years.
Also, ito marketing, these pins are not all that cheap, and in some cases
quite a few could be in use in my Folly, depending depending, making doing
them in-house, and to exact spec, worthwhile. They sorta need yuppie appeal
(you know, $400 CalvinKlein fukn sunglasses'n'shit).
Also, they are coming out *really* nice, are a little original, and might be
the basis of a separate product line.
I think I might have solved at least some of the problem, apropos of some of
the comments here. I think trying to get the proper swage all around the
hole is a bit beyond my technical means right now, and may in fact be
unnecessary.
I think I'm going to kluge a punch whose tip is about 1/32 wide (1/3 the
diam of the hole), and in the shape of a "W", where the bottom points grab
the mat'l on either side of the high point on the pin barrel, and shove it
more sharply over.
I think in trying to swage it all the way around, I was "swelling" too much
material over too far *below* the surface of the barrel, limiting the ball's
protrusion--I think.
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll

Post by BottleBob

Post by Proctologically Violated©®
Awl--
Yours truly is in fact making, from scratch, not a bad quick-release detent
locking pin--much like what you'd buy from MSC, as a part for my Greater
Folly.

Is there some overriding reason you can't use an existing detent
locking pin? CarrLane has quite an assortment.
http://www.carrlane.com/PressReleases/BallDetenPr.cfm
--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

make a bushing with a stop and then swage in the bushing, or even
thread it in.


John

[Proctologically Violated©®]

Yeah Bottle,

Checked out the link, and goddamm, their marine pin is almost the spitting
image of what I'm making! The non-marine version is close. So is one in McM
But hang on to yer hat for the prices (10 pcs): $13 ea non-marine, $24 ea,
marine!!
McM is of course more. Goodgawd....

And still, there are geometric visissytudes to deal with.
Appreciate the link, tho. :)
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll

Post by BottleBob

Post by Proctologically Violated©®
Awl--
Yours truly is in fact making, from scratch, not a bad quick-release detent
locking pin--much like what you'd buy from MSC, as a part for my Greater
Folly.

Is there some overriding reason you can't use an existing detent
locking pin? CarrLane has quite an assortment.
http://www.carrlane.com/PressReleases/BallDetenPr.cfm
--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

[Cliff]

On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 15:31:16 -0500, "Proctologically Violated©®"

Post by Proctologically Violated©®
Yeah Bottle,
Checked out the link, and goddamm, their marine pin is almost the spitting
image of what I'm making! The non-marine version is close. So is one in McM
But hang on to yer hat for the prices (10 pcs): $13 ea non-marine, $24 ea,
marine!!
McM is of course more. Goodgawd....

To repeat myself: Call a fastener supply house.

[Bryce]

On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 09:54:45 -0500, "Proctologically Violated©®"

Post by Proctologically Violated©®
In the past, I've also drilled, say, a .089 hole, and then drilled from the
other side w/ a .096 drill, just short of going thru, for the retaining
lip--you need great control in Z to do this effectively, however, AND you
don't (and cannot) get a uniform lip this way.

Could try this with a ball end mill also, might or might not be
easier.

[larry g]

PV
Instead of the calibrated weight to do the swaging use a "Toggle Press".
Imagine an arbor press but instead of having a rack and pinion arrangement
to move the ram use a toggle mechanism. This gives you a fixed z down stop
and very high pressure at the end of the stroke. I think that these are
commercially available but I cannot say where. Have to search for one. I'm
not sure if De-Sta-Co has one as heavy as I've seen, but the idea is the
same as a toggle clamp only much more stout.
lg
no neat sig line

Post by Proctologically Violated©®
Altho I haven't done this yet, when I sort of get the procedure "right", I
will standardize it by dropping a known weight from a known height, for a
reproducible swage--unless it turns out that "drilling the lip" is a
better way to go, in my circumstance.
Greatly appreciate any input.
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll

[Gunner]

On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 14:32:59 -0800, "larry g"

Post by larry g
PV
Instead of the calibrated weight to do the swaging use a "Toggle Press".
Imagine an arbor press but instead of having a rack and pinion arrangement
to move the ram use a toggle mechanism. This gives you a fixed z down stop
and very high pressure at the end of the stroke. I think that these are
commercially available but I cannot say where. Have to search for one. I'm
not sure if De-Sta-Co has one as heavy as I've seen, but the idea is the
same as a toggle clamp only much more stout.

The RCBS "RockChucker" reloading press uses this arraingement
<G>

Gunner

Post by larry g
lg
no neat sig line

Post by Proctologically Violated©®
Altho I haven't done this yet, when I sort of get the procedure "right", I
will standardize it by dropping a known weight from a known height, for a
reproducible swage--unless it turns out that "drilling the lip" is a
better way to go, in my circumstance.
Greatly appreciate any input.
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

[c***@lycos.com]

Post by larry g
PV
Instead of the calibrated weight to do the swaging use a "Toggle Press".
Imagine an arbor press but instead of having a rack and pinion arrangement
to move the ram use a toggle mechanism. This gives you a fixed z down stop
and very high pressure at the end of the stroke. I think that these are
commercially available but I cannot say where. Have to search for one. I'm
not sure if De-Sta-Co has one as heavy as I've seen, but the idea is the
same as a toggle clamp only much more stout.
lg
no neat sig line

I wonder if an O frame reloading press would have the mechanical
advantage?

Wes

[Cliff]

On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 14:32:59 -0800, "larry g"

Post by larry g
PV
Instead of the calibrated weight to do the swaging use a "Toggle Press".
Imagine an arbor press but instead of having a rack and pinion arrangement
to move the ram use a toggle mechanism. This gives you a fixed z down stop
and very high pressure at the end of the stroke. I think that these are
commercially available but I cannot say where. Have to search for one. I'm
not sure if De-Sta-Co has one as heavy as I've seen, but the idea is the
same as a toggle clamp only much more stout.

Try "staking press"?

[larry g]

Actually I was referring to this item
http://www.monroeengineering.com/clamp_toggle_pn/toggle.htm#P1200PR

lg
no neat sig line

Post by Gunner
On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 14:32:59 -0800, "larry g"

Post by larry g
PV
Instead of the calibrated weight to do the swaging use a "Toggle Press".
Imagine an arbor press but instead of having a rack and pinion arrangement
to move the ram use a toggle mechanism. This gives you a fixed z down stop
and very high pressure at the end of the stroke. I think that these are
commercially available but I cannot say where. Have to search for one.
I'm
not sure if De-Sta-Co has one as heavy as I've seen, but the idea is the
same as a toggle clamp only much more stout.

Try "staking press"?
--
Cliff

[Cliff]

On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 10:03:36 -0800, "larry g"

Post by larry g
Actually I was referring to this item
http://www.monroeengineering.com/clamp_toggle_pn/toggle.htm#P1200PR

Calculate the forces needed ....

[Proctologically Violated©®]

Well, mostly...

Still being a cadcamless muhfugguh (and I do appreciate the various efforts
to help), I drew this goddamm thing on graph paper (1 box (1/4") = 1/64, 'n'
I count g-d boxes.... works!), I realized a fundamental geometrical mistake
I was making:

A hole in a tube "wraps around", and is *lower* at the sides, in Z. The
ball sits on an inner shaft, w/ its full diameter at a "constant height" in
Z, if you will.
Thus, swaging the hole all the way around results in a premature (in my
case) blockage of the ball, and iffin you don't got a lot of room to begin
with, stuff is going to bind, stick, etc.
In fact, the swage at the lower sides are then holding the ball by
themselves, and the swaging up top is not holding anything!

If you do the math/trig on a 1/4" pin, w/ a 1/8" inner shaft, and a 3/32
ball, you'll see you don't have a lot of room, and swaging up at the top
only is pretty much a necessity.

Or, you can draw it on graph paper, 1/4" = 1/64.... <g>

This is quite related, btw, to the fact that you *cain't countersink* a hole
in a pipe--you need a cnc macro to walk around the hole, as per a specific
analytic geometrical formula (which I posted many moons ago, and in which no
one seemed particularly innerested--dat's OK.... <g>).
Or you need a file. :)

So the upshot is, one or two simple nicks on the *top* (highest point) on
the barrel are just what the pill-pushing doctor ordered! Nada mas. Or so
I think.
AND, very simple ito punch design, relatively non-critical.
I'm sure there are some subtleties and better/worse techniques in nicking
the hole, but I'm now 'way ahead of the game, compared to before.

ITO just *buying* one of these things, I'll certainly check out Fastenall
and others (SVL's link was very useful--helped verify my own differing
design), but even if I could get these at $5-7, even to the specs I need (a
very long shot, btw), this is a hefty chunk of change, end product-wise.

Appreciate all the help, hope the above helps anyone attempting the same.
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll

Post by Proctologically Violated©®
Awl--
Yours truly is in fact making, from scratch, not a bad quick-release
detent locking pin--much like what you'd buy from MSC, as a part for my
Greater Folly. BD would be proud--shocked & unnerved, but proud, I'm
sure.
These are locking (button in the back) as opposed to the tension-sprung
ball pins.
I've looked at a few to see how mfr's might be swaging the hole. I'm
having a miserable time w/ this, and am wondering if others have done
this, or have some ideas on this op.
1. Nicked at the "top" of the arc, in one or two places
2. Swaged uniformly around, either raising the edge, or depressing it.
I've done #2, making a kind of "fishmouthed punch" to depress the edge
uniformly around.
BUT,
9 times out of ten, I have to insert a drill from the other side, and
twist by hand, to get adequate protrusion of the ball--really a pain.
For a 3/32 ball, I drill .096, and the punch is 3/16 steel, fishmouthed w/
the side of a 1/4" em (for a 1/4" pin, so that the punch edge "wraps
around" the pin), and then turned down to about .125 OD, so that the punch
surface is about .015 around the hole, uniformly.
Also, the punch is drilled for a 3/32 dowel (ground a little small), to
fit in the hole-to-be-swaged, for location.
In the past, I've also drilled, say, a .089 hole, and then drilled from
the other side w/ a .096 drill, just short of going thru, for the
retaining lip--you need great control in Z to do this effectively,
however, AND you don't (and cannot) get a uniform lip this way.
Altho I haven't done this yet, when I sort of get the procedure "right", I
will standardize it by dropping a known weight from a known height, for a
reproducible swage--unless it turns out that "drilling the lip" is a
better way to go, in my circumstance.
Greatly appreciate any input.
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll