Machining Prohibited Symbol umlfd. WTF is this?

[Bing]

OK, I'm stupid.

I got a print with what looks like a surface finish symbol with a circle in
the V````` area. I deduce that it means machining prohibited, but what
machining is what I am asking. It has a note that reads "umlfd". The L looks
kinda funny though so it may be something else. Its a German print I quess,
but I have never seen a DIN callout like that before.

I also see it in areas without the note too. What does that mean?

I appreciate the help as I am confused and I need to quote on these dies.
I even called a friend in Germany and damn if he knows what it means either.

Thanks ahead
Bing

[Stanley Dornfeld]

Whaddaya mean YOU'RE stupid? The idiots trying to communicate with you, the
needs they have, are the stupid ones. Especially if they expect to get what
they want.

Call them up and ask them "WTHDIM." ( What the 'heck' does it mean?) *G

Best regards,

Stan-

Post by Bing
OK, I'm stupid.
I got a print with what looks like a surface finish symbol with a circle in
the V````` area. I deduce that it means machining prohibited, but what
machining is what I am asking. It has a note that reads "umlfd". The L looks
kinda funny though so it may be something else. Its a German print I quess,
but I have never seen a DIN callout like that before.
I also see it in areas without the note too. What does that mean?
I appreciate the help as I am confused and I need to quote on these dies.
I even called a friend in Germany and damn if he knows what it means either.
Thanks ahead
Bing
--
- Remove the FU2 to email me

[Mitch]

Hi Bing,

It probably is an abbreviation for Umlaufend, which means "all around" in
German. Does that help?
--
Cheers,

--Mitch

Post by Bing
OK, I'm stupid.
I got a print with what looks like a surface finish symbol with a circle in
the V````` area. I deduce that it means machining prohibited, but what
machining is what I am asking. It has a note that reads "umlfd". The L looks
kinda funny though so it may be something else. Its a German print I quess,
but I have never seen a DIN callout like that before.
I also see it in areas without the note too. What does that mean?
I appreciate the help as I am confused and I need to quote on these dies.
I even called a friend in Germany and damn if he knows what it means either.
Thanks ahead
Bing
--
- Remove the FU2 to email me

[Bing]

Post by Mitch
Hi Bing,
It probably is an abbreviation for Umlaufend, which means "all around" in
German. Does that help?
--

Hey! Now that makes sense. Thats gotta be it Mitch.

Now, you bring up another issue though. The mark means machining prohibited
from what I know, and the mark is displayed in the thru pocket of the die
and the outside of the die. Now, the question is, if you are correct which I
think you are, then how do I "NOT" machine these areas? Or does that symbol
mean somethng else?
I wonder if this mark means something else.in DIN standards versus ANSI.....

Thanks alot though!
Bing

[J. R. Carroll]

Post by Bing

Post by Mitch
Hi Bing,
It probably is an abbreviation for Umlaufend, which means "all around" in
German. Does that help?
--

Hey! Now that makes sense. Thats gotta be it Mitch.
Now, you bring up another issue though. The mark means machining prohibited
from what I know, and the mark is displayed in the thru pocket of the die
and the outside of the die. Now, the question is, if you are correct which I
think you are, then how do I "NOT" machine these areas? Or does that symbol
mean somethng else?
I wonder if this mark means something else.in DIN standards versus ANSI.....
Thanks alot though!
Bing

Maybe just no EDM?

[Mitch]

Hi Bing,

I'm not a machinist unfortunately, I'm not really familiar with these
symbols. I did, however, find this:

"The Material Removal Prohibited symbol with circle in the V, indicates that
the surface must be produced by processes like casting, forging, hot
finishing, cold finishing, die casting, injection molding, or powder
metallurgy without subsequent removal of material." (from Machinery's
handbook and other sources)

As to whether that is different in DIN standards - I kinda doubt it, but I
can't find any reference to this yet...
--
Cheers,

--Mitch

Post by Bing

Post by Mitch
Hi Bing,
It probably is an abbreviation for Umlaufend, which means "all around" in
German. Does that help?
--

Hey! Now that makes sense. Thats gotta be it Mitch.
Now, you bring up another issue though. The mark means machining prohibited
from what I know, and the mark is displayed in the thru pocket of the die
and the outside of the die. Now, the question is, if you are correct which I
think you are, then how do I "NOT" machine these areas? Or does that symbol
mean somethng else?
I wonder if this mark means something else.in DIN standards versus ANSI.....
Thanks alot though!
Bing

[Bing]

Post by Mitch
Hi Bing,
I'm not a machinist unfortunately, I'm not really familiar with these
"The Material Removal Prohibited symbol with circle in the V, indicates that
the surface must be produced by processes like casting, forging, hot
finishing, cold finishing, die casting, injection molding, or powder
metallurgy without subsequent removal of material." (from Machinery's
handbook and other sources)
As to whether that is different in DIN standards - I kinda doubt it, but I
can't find any reference to this yet...

I must be blind as a bat cause I didnt see it in the Machinists handbook.
What edition are they on now? Have they came out with version 3 yet? :)

I guess I'm gonna DQ this as it makes no sense to me how you can machine a
pocket of a die by casting.
Crazy engineers! <g>

Bing

[Shannon Keetch]

Bing,
Is the dwg of the die or the resultant part? Any machining for its
completion? to . Perhaps these areas are simply not machined on resultant
part.
Kyle

Post by Bing

Post by Mitch
Hi Bing,
I'm not a machinist unfortunately, I'm not really familiar with these
"The Material Removal Prohibited symbol with circle in the V, indicates

that

Post by Mitch
the surface must be produced by processes like casting, forging, hot
finishing, cold finishing, die casting, injection molding, or powder
metallurgy without subsequent removal of material." (from Machinery's
handbook and other sources)
As to whether that is different in DIN standards - I kinda doubt it, but I
can't find any reference to this yet...

I must be blind as a bat cause I didnt see it in the Machinists handbook.
What edition are they on now? Have they came out with version 3 yet? :)
I guess I'm gonna DQ this as it makes no sense to me how you can machine a
pocket of a die by casting.
Crazy engineers! <g>
Bing

[Bing]

Post by Shannon Keetch
Bing,
Is the dwg of the die or the resultant part? Any machining for its
completion? to . Perhaps these areas are simply not machined on resultant
part.
Kyle

No it's the die with a backup plate that holds in the punches. The inside
pocket has (4) ,5mm rads in the corners. I didnt include them in that sample
drawing as it was a quickie.

Bing

[Rudi Curto]

Post by Bing

Post by Mitch
It probably is an abbreviation for Umlaufend, which means "all around" in
German. Does that help?
--

Hey! Now that makes sense. Thats gotta be it Mitch.
Now, you bring up another issue though. The mark means machining prohibited
from what I know, and the mark is displayed in the thru pocket of the die
and the outside of the die. Now, the question is, if you are correct which I
think you are, then how do I "NOT" machine these areas? Or does that symbol
mean somethng else?
I wonder if this mark means something else.in DIN standards versus ANSI.....

In UNI standards (italian standards that come from DIN standards ) that symbol
means NO machining, only forming type operations (extrusion, casting,forging...)

Rudi

[Bing]

Post by Mitch
Hi Bing,
It probably is an abbreviation for Umlaufend, which means "all around" in
German. Does that help?
--

BTW, here is the symbol onna mock up drawing.

http://www.hpphoto.com/servlet/com.hp.HPGuestLogin?username=bing&password=34166722

[Carmine Castiglia]

I found this:

"Material Removal Prohibited. The circle in the vee indicates the surface
must be produced by processes such as casting, forging, hot finishing, cold
finishing, die casting, powder metallurgy and injection molding without
subsequent removal of material."

here: http://www.predev.com/smg/specification.htm

Carmine Castiglia
http://www.infosystemspro.com

Post by Bing

Post by Mitch
Hi Bing,
It probably is an abbreviation for Umlaufend, which means "all around" in
German. Does that help?
--

BTW, here is the symbol onna mock up drawing.

http://www.hpphoto.com/servlet/com.hp.HPGuestLogin?username=bing&password=34166722

[Cliff Huprich]

Post by Bing
"umlfd"

Umfeld ?

peripherie
environment
surroundings

http://www.dict.cc/?s=Umfeld

[Philip]

"umlfd" = umlaufend=allaround
and not "umfeld"

Post by Cliff Huprich

Post by Bing
"umlfd"

Umfeld ?
peripherie
environment
surroundings
http://www.dict.cc/?s=Umfeld
--
Cliff

[gel]

Post by Bing
OK, I'm stupid.
I got a print with what looks like a surface finish symbol with a circle in
the V````` area. I deduce that it means machining prohibited, but what
machining is what I am asking. It has a note that reads "umlfd". The L looks
kinda funny though so it may be something else. Its a German print I quess,
but I have never seen a DIN callout like that before.
I also see it in areas without the note too. What does that mean?

It means "raw surface", so this surface do not need to be machined....
instead of the circle there could be a number indicating the finish level of
the surface to be machined...

bye
gel

[Bing]

Post by Bing

Post by Bing
OK, I'm stupid.
I got a print with what looks like a surface finish symbol with a circle

in

Post by Bing
the V````` area. I deduce that it means machining prohibited, but what
machining is what I am asking. It has a note that reads "umlfd". The L

looks

Post by Bing
kinda funny though so it may be something else. Its a German print I

quess,

Post by Bing
but I have never seen a DIN callout like that before.
I also see it in areas without the note too. What does that mean?

It means "raw surface", so this surface do not need to be machined....
instead of the circle there could be a number indicating the finish level of
the surface to be machined...

Thanks Gel.

I would reckon a milled finish would be fine. No surface callout though
anywhere.

[Carmine Castiglia]

Post by Bing

Post by Bing

Post by Bing
OK, I'm stupid.
I got a print with what looks like a surface finish symbol with a circle

in

Post by Bing
the V````` area. I deduce that it means machining prohibited, but what
machining is what I am asking. It has a note that reads "umlfd". The L

looks

Post by Bing
kinda funny though so it may be something else. Its a German print I

quess,

Post by Bing
but I have never seen a DIN callout like that before.
I also see it in areas without the note too. What does that mean?

It means "raw surface", so this surface do not need to be machined....
instead of the circle there could be a number indicating the finish

level

Post by Bing
of

Post by Bing
the surface to be machined...

Thanks Gel.
I would reckon a milled finish would be fine. No surface callout though
anywhere.

No, you are missing the point. It says, "Material Removal Prohibited".
Prohibited. Nada. Not allowed. Do not machine. Etc.

My guess would be that the print is actually for a cast/formed/powder metal
compact/forged part and they are saying that you are specifically prohibited
from removing any material from the indicated surfaces.

You really need to contact your customer and ask them, "What's up?" It's
possible that they are in need of parts machined from solid in which case
they will give you an exception on the machining prohibited symbol. It's
also possible that they want exactly what the print asks for in which case
you could end up making a lot of parts which they will refuse to pay for...


"Material Removal Prohibited. The circle in the vee indicates the surface
must be produced by processes such as casting, forging, hot finishing, cold
finishing, die casting, powder metallurgy and injection molding without
subsequent removal of material."

Carmine Castiglia
http://www.infosystemspro.com

[Bing]

Post by Carmine Castiglia
No, you are missing the point. It says, "Material Removal Prohibited".
Prohibited. Nada. Not allowed. Do not machine. Etc.
My guess would be that the print is actually for a cast/formed/powder metal
compact/forged part and they are saying that you are specifically prohibited
from removing any material from the indicated surfaces.
You really need to contact your customer and ask them, "What's up?" It's
possible that they are in need of parts machined from solid in which case
they will give you an exception on the machining prohibited symbol. It's
also possible that they want exactly what the print asks for in which case
you could end up making a lot of parts which they will refuse to pay for...

Well I called the client up that subbed out this work and told him of the
situation. He didnt realise what that symbol meant either.
So he called his client and they told him that they dont know why the
designer did that. I guess they told them that he may have meant a certain
finish all the way around those surfaces but picked the wrong symbol, and
left out the finish, or that he's just plain frickin nuts.

They said a milled 16 finish would be just fine.

I appreciate all the help on this one. Good thing at least I paid attention
to the symbol or I could be out a few bucks.
Which brings up a good point. Dont take on jobs if you do not know or care
what symbols, callouts etc mean.

Thanks everybody
Bing

[Charlie Gary]

"Bing" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message news:cBXOb.27592$***@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
<<Snip>>

Post by Bing
Which brings up a good point. Dont take on jobs if you do not know or care
what symbols, callouts etc mean.
Thanks everybody
Bing

I don't know how many times in the past I saw folks up front realize things
like this after contracts were signed. We don't have as many up front folks
as we used to, but the number of folks in the shop hasn't changed too
terribly much.

[Bing]

Post by Charlie Gary
<<Snip>>

Post by Bing
Which brings up a good point. Dont take on jobs if you do not know or care
what symbols, callouts etc mean.
Thanks everybody
Bing

I don't know how many times in the past I saw folks up front realize things
like this after contracts were signed. We don't have as many up front folks
as we used to, but the number of folks in the shop hasn't changed too
terribly much.

yea, its it's B to take onna job without knowing anything about it really.

Thats why I questioned and thats why I appreciate the replies.

Bing