Interesting...Cobots

Post by Gunner Asch
http://www.ctemag.com/aa_pages/2015/150108-Robots.html

Excellent article, may be installing some this year.

F. George McDuffee

2015-02-18 19:56:04 UTC

On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 10:08:10 -0800, Gunner Asch

Post by Gunner Asch
http://www.ctemag.com/aa_pages/2015/150108-Robots.html
Ill bet these could easily replace a Leftwinger at work.
(Grin)

*********************************
It is well to remember that one employer's workers are
another employer's customers.

While automation/robotics can indeed "micro" optimize one
employer's operations, if widely applied, and with no other
adjustments, it will be quickly fatal to the ==>existing<==
debt based consumer [est. 70% of GDP consumer based]
economy.

This is not to say that a new automation/robotic based
economy will be worse than what we have (it may well be
better), but it will be very different.

--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"

Ed Huntress

2015-02-18 20:20:24 UTC

On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 13:56:04 -0600, F. George McDuffee

Post by F. George McDuffee
On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 10:08:10 -0800, Gunner Asch

Post by Gunner Asch
http://www.ctemag.com/aa_pages/2015/150108-Robots.html
Ill bet these could easily replace a Leftwinger at work.
(Grin)

*********************************
It is well to remember that one employer's workers are
another employer's customers.
While automation/robotics can indeed "micro" optimize one
employer's operations, if widely applied, and with no other
adjustments, it will be quickly fatal to the ==>existing<==
debt based consumer [est. 70% of GDP consumer based]
economy.
This is not to say that a new automation/robotic based
economy will be worse than what we have (it may well be
better), but it will be very different.

First, we've known this was coming since the '60s. Second, nobody
knows what to do about it.

Third, there aren't many "leftwingers" working in manufacturing jobs
that require the kind of flexibility that Kip is talking about. The
collaborative robots are working with versatile workers, in batch
production and in job shops. These aren't assembly-line jobs.

If you come up with an answer, George, we're all ears:

http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/fabshopmagdirect/november2014/#/3

--
Ed Huntress

F. George McDuffee

2015-02-19 01:29:04 UTC

On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 15:20:24 -0500, Ed Huntress
If I had an answer I would be en route to Stockholm with a
wheelbarrow to pick up my Nobels.

While many people foresee a multitude of problems, I don't
think anyone (including me) grasps the magnitude of
socioeconomic change that is about to occur with the wide
spread implementation of artificial intelligence/big data
and extensive robotics. In most areas of current society
people are identified by their job, and it will be a loss of
identity for large numbers of people when there are no jobs.

--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"

Ed Huntress

2015-02-19 01:52:10 UTC

On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 19:29:04 -0600, F. George McDuffee

Post by F. George McDuffee
On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 15:20:24 -0500, Ed Huntress
If I had an answer I would be en route to Stockholm with a
wheelbarrow to pick up my Nobels.

<g> Yes you would.

Post by F. George McDuffee
While many people foresee a multitude of problems, I don't
think anyone (including me) grasps the magnitude of
socioeconomic change that is about to occur with the wide
spread implementation of artificial intelligence/big data
and extensive robotics. In most areas of current society
people are identified by their job, and it will be a loss of
identity for large numbers of people when there are no jobs.

Yes, and I don't like the looks of it. There will be jobs, probably,
but there will be a lot that no one would identify with.

--
Ed Huntress

rbowman

2015-02-19 02:10:49 UTC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_Piano_%28novel%29

Kurt Vonnegut nailed in in 1952. I found it in the high school library
around 1961. Since I was on an engineering career path it gave me cause to
think. It was particular chilling since it was the Ilium High School so to
speak:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilium,_New_York

At the time people working at GE Schenectady were making good money and
wanted even more. The mantra was 'GE has too much invested here. They can't
move.' In time the unions found that to be untrue. A further problem was the
Large Steam Turbine division suffered when they stopped building large
nuclear plants that required large steam turbines.

GE wasn't the only one. ALCO, American Locomotive went out of business, the
Ford radiator plant, Cluett & Peabody's manufacturing, Marshal Eclipse, John
A Manning, and many others went south or went out of business entirely.

news13

2015-02-19 03:27:49 UTC

Post by rbowman

While many people foresee a multitude of problems, I don't think anyone
(including me) grasps the magnitude of socioeconomic change that is
about to occur with the wide spread implementation of artificial
intelligence/big data and extensive robotics. In most areas of current
society people are identified by their job, and it will be a loss of
identity for large numbers of people when there are no jobs.

The eyes have turned to decision making and how "automation/?" is
already putting people out of work there. Notice how they are subtly
transforming the information collection from stuff like paper/voice that
requires a person, to you entering it online.

As in the past, it won't be the workers who benefit.

Post by rbowman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilium,_New_York
At the time people working at GE Schenectady were making good money and
wanted even more. The mantra was 'GE has too much invested here. They
can't move.' In time the unions found that to be untrue. A further
problem was the Large Steam Turbine division suffered when they stopped
building large nuclear plants that required large steam turbines.
GE wasn't the only one. ALCO, American Locomotive went out of business,
the Ford radiator plant, Cluett & Peabody's manufacturing, Marshal
Eclipse, John A Manning, and many others went south or went out of
business entirely.

Funnily, the cross posting twerp who started this thread had his business
arse handed to him by a similar global change a few years ago.

Is anyone eye's up on "peak electricity"? The roll out of home PV in this
country is leaving a lot of recently installed grid hardware surplus to
any future requirements.

If we get another decent battery development, they expect a lot of homes
to move ex-grid.

F. George McDuffee

2015-02-19 03:45:24 UTC

On Thu, 19 Feb 2015 03:27:49 +0000 (UTC), news13

Post by news13
If we get another decent battery development, they expect a lot of homes
to move ex-grid.

http://tinyurl.com/mhcgjq6

--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"

news13

2015-02-19 07:00:22 UTC

Post by F. George McDuffee
On Thu, 19 Feb 2015 03:27:49 +0000 (UTC), news13

Post by news13
If we get another decent battery development, they expect a lot of homes
to move ex-grid.

http://tinyurl.com/mhcgjq6

Might be, but I'll keep my money in my pocket for a while yet. Wet cells
are still the proven permormers there.

Gunner Asch

2015-02-19 11:29:59 UTC

On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 19:29:04 -0600, F. George McDuffee

Post by F. George McDuffee
On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 15:20:24 -0500, Ed Huntress
If I had an answer I would be en route to Stockholm with a
wheelbarrow to pick up my Nobels.
While many people foresee a multitude of problems, I don't
think anyone (including me) grasps the magnitude of
socioeconomic change that is about to occur with the wide
spread implementation of artificial intelligence/big data
and extensive robotics. In most areas of current society
people are identified by their job, and it will be a loss of
identity for large numbers of people when there are no jobs.

Our current 21% unemployment rate has already shown that to be a
big..big issue.

Not just identity either..pride, self respect are also key. One has
countless examples of what happens when the citizens are on the Dole.

Rome is a very good place to start....

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child,
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats."
PJ O'Rourke

F. George McDuffee

2015-02-19 16:47:53 UTC

On Thu, 19 Feb 2015 03:29:59 -0800, Gunner Asch
<***@gmail.com> wrote:
<snip>

Post by Gunner Asch
Our current 21% unemployment rate has already shown that to be a
big..big issue.
Not just identity either..pride, self respect are also key. One has
countless examples of what happens when the citizens are on the Dole.
Rome is a very good place to start....

</snip>
FYI
http://tinyurl.com/oz97ybg
The American economy is changing and we may be
overcompensating. Thats one takeaway from Yahoo Finances
latest discussion with Nobel Prize winning economist, and
Yale University professor, Robert Shiller.
...
In the latest edition of his book, Irrational Exuberance,
Shiller explains that people may need to move away from the
thought that the economy will go back to how it was
pre-crisis. A lot of people are holding on to old facts,
old presumptions, he said.

That has a big impact in how we spend and how we save. It
also impacts how we work. People today are afraid of new
technology. They dont know where its going. Computers are
replacing jobs all over the place where will we be in 30,
50 or 100 years? he said. The end result of this is that
people are less willing to take risks at work, thinking
instead that if they take bland, less specialized jobs,
theyre less likely to be replaced.

One approach is, Im going to take the blandest most
general career because Im afraid. Im not going to build up
my human capital because it might be obsolete. Shiller
said. That is maybe a rational response to the situation
but I think it leaves the economy in a bad state.
...

--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"

Gunner Asch

2015-02-19 17:10:21 UTC

On Thu, 19 Feb 2015 10:47:53 -0600, F. George McDuffee

Post by F. George McDuffee
That is maybe a rational response to the situation
but I think it leaves the economy in a bad state.

Jumping into the lifeboat may leave the ship in a bad state as it
sinks..but one can hardly blame the jumpee....

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child,
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats."
PJ O'Rourke

F. George McDuffee

2015-02-20 14:30:28 UTC

On Thu, 19 Feb 2015 09:10:21 -0800, Gunner Asch

Post by Gunner Asch

Post by F. George McDuffee
That is maybe a rational response to the situation
but I think it leaves the economy in a bad state.

Jumping into the lifeboat may leave the ship in a bad state as it
sinks..but one can hardly blame the jumpee....

This is a variant of Keynes "Paradox of Thrift"
http://tinyurl.com/5zqhtu in that what is rational/utile for
the individual is counter-productive for the aggregated
socioeconomy. We can generally ignore this because not
enough people are opting to take this option. The problem
starts when a significant minority start to do so, and this
"snowballs" due to the bandwagon effect.

A contributing factor is the changing demographics in that
the population is getting older, and it is generally the
young who are willing to try something new.

Remember, we are discussing this in the aggregate, and there
will always be individual exceptions, possibly because they
have nothing to lose, or because family resources allows
them to "take a flyer," e. g. Bill Gates. Its the large
majority in between that's the "problem."

It is this type of problem(s) where social dynamics becomes
key, and the disparaged disciplines such as anthropology and
sociology become critical. In the ages past this had to be
left to chance because the factors were not understood on
other than an anecdotal basis, but with the creation of a
"brittle" global socioeconomy with mega urban areas, it is
now at least as critical to understand these dynamics and
try as best we can to manage them, as it is to understand
epidemiology and public health, and to try to manage that,
e. g. ebola, measles, cholera, TB, STD/VD, etc., through
pure food and drug laws, clean water laws, compulsory
immunization, etc.

Humanity has created this Frankenstein's monster, continues
to make it stronger, and it must be managed/controlled, if
it is not to turn on us.

--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"

Rudy Canoza

2015-02-20 17:44:01 UTC

Post by F. George McDuffee
On Thu, 19 Feb 2015 09:10:21 -0800, Gunner Asch

Post by Gunner Asch

Post by F. George McDuffee
That is maybe a rational response to the situation
but I think it leaves the economy in a bad state.”

Jumping into the lifeboat may leave the ship in a bad state as it
sinks..but one can hardly blame the jumpee....

This is a variant of Keynes "Paradox of Thrift"

Thoroughly discredited.

--
I ceased in the year 1764 to believe that one can convince one’s
opponents with arguments printed in books. It is not to do that,
therefore, that I have taken up my pen, but merely so as to annoy them,
and to bestow strength and courage on those on our own side, and to make
it known to the others that they have not convinced us.

Georg Christoph Lichtenberg
1742 - 1799

BeamMeUpScotty

2015-02-20 18:54:14 UTC

Post by F. George McDuffee
On Thu, 19 Feb 2015 09:10:21 -0800, Gunner Asch

Post by Gunner Asch

Post by F. George McDuffee
That is maybe a rational response to the situation
but I think it leaves the economy in a bad state.”

Jumping into the lifeboat may leave the ship in a bad state as it
sinks..but one can hardly blame the jumpee....

This is a variant of Keynes "Paradox of Thrift"

Thoroughly discredited.

Keynes is Socialism, and Socialism is in a constant state of failure.

--
*Rumination*
#7 - Make the Socialists proud of you, strive to be the best at
mediocrity that you can be.

rbowman

2015-02-20 02:33:41 UTC

“One approach is, ‘I’m going to take the blandest most
general career because I’m afraid. I’m not going to build up
my human capital because it might be obsolete.’” Shiller
said. “That is maybe a rational response to the situation
but I think it leaves the economy in a bad state.”

Fast food worker is a nice, general career. Over the last 40 years or so
I've had to reinvent my career as the old one faded away. I spent some time
today reading up on hybrid clouds and the restify framework for node.js
since we have a VP that thinks clouds sound kewl.

Not to beat around the bush, some people can't or won't keep abreast of the
technology. They're screwed.

Rudy Canoza

2015-02-18 20:47:19 UTC

Post by F. George McDuffee
On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 10:08:10 -0800, Gunner Asch

Post by Gunner Asch
http://www.ctemag.com/aa_pages/2015/150108-Robots.html
Ill bet these could easily replace a Leftwinger at work.
(Grin)

More lump-of-labor bullshit. It's a fallacy.

BeamMeUpScotty

2015-02-18 20:54:00 UTC

Post by F. George McDuffee
On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 10:08:10 -0800, Gunner Asch

Post by Gunner Asch
http://www.ctemag.com/aa_pages/2015/150108-Robots.html
Ill bet these could easily replace a Leftwinger at work.
(Grin)

More lump-of-labor bullshit. It's a fallacy.

Wait till McDonald's starts using a fry MACHINE that will use the
computer to count and time and cook and bag all their fries so it spits
out an order with ZERO human intervention until it needs to be serviced
once each week.

ObamaCare and the Democrats are pushing business closer to that.

--
*Rumination*
#74 - That's life, there was no guarantee or expiration on you when you
were taken out of the packaging.

Ed Huntress

2015-02-18 21:26:32 UTC

On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 12:47:19 -0800, Rudy Canoza

Post by F. George McDuffee
On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 10:08:10 -0800, Gunner Asch

Post by Gunner Asch
http://www.ctemag.com/aa_pages/2015/150108-Robots.html
Ill bet these could easily replace a Leftwinger at work.
(Grin)

More lump-of-labor bullshit. It's a fallacy.

It's not the lump-of-labor fallacy, because it's not an assumption
based on zero-sum. It recognizes growth. It also recognizes that the
growth in productivity parallels growth in GDP, but that the growth in
productivity is outstripping the demand for workers -- in
manufacturing, where it's already apparent:

https://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?graph_id=203981&category_id=

This is the result of automation, which I've covered for 40 years as a
reporter.

The question is whether other sectors will replace the loss of
manufacturing jobs. Besides productivity improvements, they have to
overcome the fact that manufacturing has the highest multiplier effect
on other jobs.

They also have to overcome the fact that those manufacturing jobs, in
raw numbers, at least, are being replaced with low-paying service
jobs.

--
Ed Huntress

Rudy Canoza

2015-02-19 00:33:31 UTC

Post by Ed Huntress
On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 12:47:19 -0800, Rudy Canoza

Post by F. George McDuffee
On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 10:08:10 -0800, Gunner Asch

Post by Gunner Asch
http://www.ctemag.com/aa_pages/2015/150108-Robots.html
Ill bet these could easily replace a Leftwinger at work.
(Grin)

More lump-of-labor bullshit. It's a fallacy.

It's not the lump-of-labor fallacy,

It's the lump of labor fallacy - something you don't understand. It is
*exactly* what McDumpster is saying. He's saying there is only so much
work to be done - the lump - and that if machines start doing more,
there won't be any work for workers to do, so no income will be earned,
so no purchases or debt repayment. That's what McDumpster is saying.
That's the lump of labor fallacy.

Ed Huntress

2015-02-19 01:44:44 UTC

On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 16:33:31 -0800, Rudy Canoza

Post by Ed Huntress
On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 12:47:19 -0800, Rudy Canoza

Post by F. George McDuffee
On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 10:08:10 -0800, Gunner Asch

Post by Gunner Asch
http://www.ctemag.com/aa_pages/2015/150108-Robots.html
Ill bet these could easily replace a Leftwinger at work.
(Grin)

More lump-of-labor bullshit. It's a fallacy.

It's not the lump-of-labor fallacy,

I'm not going to speak for George, but the graph to which I posted a
link shows that manufacturing employment is falling off even in the
face of increasing GDP and (consequentially) increasing productivity.
The effect on the total economy is more complicated but I have graphs
of that, too.

I understand the lunp of labor fallacy quite well, thanks. It's pretty
simple. And the graph to which I posted that link does NOT assume a
zero-sum relationship at all. It's the dynamic relationship we're
facing now.

Manufacturing is the subject that was being discussed. Automation is
knocking the hell out of employment there. And the median household
income and percentage of 15-64 employment figures, posed against GDP,
suggest that the effect is to keep wages down relative to GDP across
the board.

--
Ed Huntress

Les Cargill

2015-02-19 03:24:04 UTC

Post by Ed Huntress
On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 16:33:31 -0800, Rudy Canoza

Post by Ed Huntress
On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 12:47:19 -0800, Rudy Canoza

Post by F. George McDuffee
On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 10:08:10 -0800, Gunner Asch

Post by Gunner Asch
http://www.ctemag.com/aa_pages/2015/150108-Robots.html
Ill bet these could easily replace a Leftwinger at work.
(Grin)

More lump-of-labor bullshit. It's a fallacy.

It's not the lump-of-labor fallacy,

I'm not going to speak for George, but the graph to which I posted a
link shows that manufacturing employment is falling off even in the
face of increasing GDP and (consequentially) increasing productivity.
The effect on the total economy is more complicated but I have graphs
of that, too.
I understand the lunp of labor fallacy quite well, thanks. It's pretty
simple. And the graph to which I posted that link does NOT assume a
zero-sum relationship at all. It's the dynamic relationship we're
facing now.
Manufacturing is the subject that was being discussed. Automation is
knocking the hell out of employment there. And the median household
income and percentage of 15-64 employment figures, posed against GDP,
suggest that the effect is to keep wages down relative to GDP across
the board.

The thing that's killing the ability to interpret employment stats is
the big demographic shift from the Baby Boomer retirement curve.

The big scary thing is decades of low interest rates without
corresponding increase in GDP. It drives valuations sky
high and increases instability.

Wages naturally stagnate. But if everyone's out to make a killing,
they'll play the valuations game, which may or may
not even result in real gains. So there's accelerating shear between
paper wealth and real wealth.

--
Les Cargill

Ed Huntress

2015-02-19 12:37:33 UTC

On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 21:24:04 -0600, Les Cargill

Post by Les Cargill

Post by Ed Huntress
On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 16:33:31 -0800, Rudy Canoza

Post by Ed Huntress
On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 12:47:19 -0800, Rudy Canoza

Post by F. George McDuffee
On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 10:08:10 -0800, Gunner Asch

Post by Gunner Asch
http://www.ctemag.com/aa_pages/2015/150108-Robots.html
Ill bet these could easily replace a Leftwinger at work.
(Grin)

More lump-of-labor bullshit. It's a fallacy.

It's not the lump-of-labor fallacy,

I'm not going to speak for George, but the graph to which I posted a
link shows that manufacturing employment is falling off even in the
face of increasing GDP and (consequentially) increasing productivity.
The effect on the total economy is more complicated but I have graphs
of that, too.
I understand the lunp of labor fallacy quite well, thanks. It's pretty
simple. And the graph to which I posted that link does NOT assume a
zero-sum relationship at all. It's the dynamic relationship we're
facing now.
Manufacturing is the subject that was being discussed. Automation is
knocking the hell out of employment there. And the median household
income and percentage of 15-64 employment figures, posed against GDP,
suggest that the effect is to keep wages down relative to GDP across
the board.

The thing that's killing the ability to interpret employment stats is
the big demographic shift from the Baby Boomer retirement curve.

You can get employment data almost any way you could want it. You can
get employment data for 15-64 year-olds, as a percentage and as raw
numbers; per-capita; and workforce data (which includes the unemployed
who are looking for work) by sex and age. We have U3 and every other
category of unemployment from U1 to U6.

There is no problem with getting or interpreting the data. It's
well-defined and readily available.

Post by Les Cargill
The big scary thing is decades of low interest rates without
corresponding increase in GDP. It drives valuations sky
high and increases instability.

We have had very large increases in GDP:

https://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?graph_id=215425&category_id=

Post by Les Cargill
Wages naturally stagnate. But if everyone's out to make a killing,
they'll play the valuations game, which may or may
not even result in real gains. So there's accelerating shear between
paper wealth and real wealth.

Sorry, I don't follow that one at all.

--
Ed Huntress

jim <""sjedgingN0Sp\"@">

2015-02-19 14:40:22 UTC

Post by Les Cargill
Wages naturally stagnate. But if everyone's out to make a
killing, they'll play the valuations game, which may or may not
even result in real gains. So there's accelerating shear between
paper wealth and real wealth.

Sorry, I don't follow that one at all.

Pretty easy to follow. That belief certainly explains
why corporations are borrowing money to buy back
stock in record amounts. It is easy to
understand why the corporation does this.
But the
question is why do investors sell the stock and
buy bonds that pay at or below the rate of
inflation?

Obviously lots of investors believe strongly in this
shear between paper wealth and real wealth. A bond is
considered real wealth with a locked in value while
stocks are just paper wealth that is likely to
evaporate at any moment.

Ed Huntress

2015-02-19 15:18:59 UTC

Post by jim <""sjedgingN0Sp\"@">

Post by Les Cargill
Wages naturally stagnate. But if everyone's out to make a
killing, they'll play the valuations game, which may or may not
even result in real gains. So there's accelerating shear between
paper wealth and real wealth.

Sorry, I don't follow that one at all.

Pretty easy to follow.

First, there is no reason to believe that wages "naturally" stagnate.
They go up, they go down, and I know of no argument that says they
have a "narural" rate. It depends on the supply and demand for labor
and on the relative negotiating strength of management versus labor at
any given time, including coercive facts that influence the
negotiating strength of each.

Post by jim <""sjedgingN0Sp\"@">
That belief certainly explains
why corporations are borrowing money to buy back
stock in record amounts.

Sorry, I see no connection. Buybacks are based almost entirely on the
desire of management and owners to enrich themselves while adding
nothing to the asset value or the sales volume of the company in
question.

Post by jim <""sjedgingN0Sp\"@">
It is easy to
understand why the corporation does this.

True enough, but it has nothing to do with wages.

Post by jim <""sjedgingN0Sp\"@">
But the
question is why do investors sell the stock and
buy bonds that pay at or below the rate of
inflation?

That's a complicated question. A fundamental reason is that they
believe the stock is going to lose value in the near future. There are
other reasons.

Post by jim <""sjedgingN0Sp\"@">
Obviously lots of investors believe strongly in this
shear between paper wealth and real wealth. A bond is
considered real wealth with a locked in value while
stocks are just paper wealth that is likely to
evaporate at any moment.

I'm not going to comment on that. You're getting into a complicated
issue. The value of bonds goes up and down based on the value of their
returns relative to alternative investments, and to the perceived risk
associated with each.

--
Ed Huntress

Joe Gwinn

2015-02-20 18:58:26 UTC

[snip]

There is another major cause. All fixed-income securities, including
bonds, also vary inversely with the interest rate.

Inversely? Yes, inversely - when interest rates are low, bonds are
high, and vice versa.

Equities, including stocks, do the opposite.

Joe Gwinn

BeamMeUpScotty

2015-02-20 19:15:25 UTC

Post by Joe Gwinn
[snip]

Where did your money go when a bond you bought from a company becomes
worthless as the company the Bond is on/from goes broke? It evaporated
didn't it?

Post by Joe Gwinn

Post by Ed Huntress
I'm not going to comment on that. You're getting into a complicated
issue. The value of bonds goes up and down based on the value of their
returns relative to alternative investments, and to the perceived risk
associated with each.

And the taxes and the inflation rates. Which are based on Government
policy?

Ed Huntress

2015-02-20 19:42:46 UTC

On Fri, 20 Feb 2015 14:15:25 -0500, BeamMeUpScotty

Post by BeamMeUpScotty

Post by Joe Gwinn
[snip]

Where did your money go when a bond you bought from a company becomes
worthless as the company the Bond is on/from goes broke? It evaporated
didn't it?

It depends on where the company's assets versus liabilities stand at
the time of bankrupcy. Legal and administrative costs are paid first.
Then creditors are paid, secured creditors first. Then unsecured
creditors, including suppliers and bondholders. Finally, stockholders
(common stock) are paid.

Post by BeamMeUpScotty

Post by Joe Gwinn

And the taxes and the inflation rates. Which are based on Government
policy?

Right.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress

2015-02-20 19:16:14 UTC

Post by Joe Gwinn
[snip]

There is another major cause. All fixed-income securities, including
bonds, also vary inversely with the interest rate.
Inversely? Yes, inversely - when interest rates are low, bonds are
high, and vice versa.
Equities, including stocks, do the opposite.

Right.

-- Ed Huntress

Post by Joe Gwinn
Joe Gwinn

Rudy Canoza

2015-02-19 04:06:44 UTC

Post by Ed Huntress
On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 16:33:31 -0800, Rudy Canoza

Post by Ed Huntress
On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 12:47:19 -0800, Rudy Canoza

Post by F. George McDuffee
On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 10:08:10 -0800, Gunner Asch

Post by Gunner Asch
http://www.ctemag.com/aa_pages/2015/150108-Robots.html
Ill bet these could easily replace a Leftwinger at work.
(Grin)

More lump-of-labor bullshit. It's a fallacy.

It's not the lump-of-labor fallacy,

I'm not going to speak for George, but the graph to which I posted a
link shows that manufacturing employment is falling off

Big deal. Switzerland doesn't manufacture any cars, airplanes, ships,
etc., and the Swiss are quite rich.

Post by Ed Huntress
Manufacturing is the subject that was being discussed.

Manufacturing is overrated.

Ed Huntress

2015-02-19 12:18:02 UTC

On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 20:06:44 -0800, Rudy Canoza

Post by Ed Huntress
On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 16:33:31 -0800, Rudy Canoza

Post by Ed Huntress
On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 12:47:19 -0800, Rudy Canoza

Post by F. George McDuffee
On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 10:08:10 -0800, Gunner Asch

Post by Gunner Asch
http://www.ctemag.com/aa_pages/2015/150108-Robots.html
Ill bet these could easily replace a Leftwinger at work.
(Grin)

More lump-of-labor bullshit. It's a fallacy.

It's not the lump-of-labor fallacy,

I'm not going to speak for George, but the graph to which I posted a
link shows that manufacturing employment is falling off

Big deal. Switzerland doesn't manufacture any cars, airplanes, ships,
etc., and the Swiss are quite rich.

Switzerland's manufacturing percentage of GDP is 19%. That of the US
is 13%

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NV.IND.MANF.ZS

Post by Ed Huntress
Manufacturing is the subject that was being discussed.

Manufacturing is overrated.

Only if you aren't paying attention.

--
Ed Huntress

BeamMeUpScotty

2015-02-19 17:23:49 UTC

Post by Ed Huntress
On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 16:33:31 -0800, Rudy Canoza

Post by Ed Huntress
On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 12:47:19 -0800, Rudy Canoza

Post by F. George McDuffee
On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 10:08:10 -0800, Gunner Asch

Post by Gunner Asch
http://www.ctemag.com/aa_pages/2015/150108-Robots.html
Ill bet these could easily replace a Leftwinger at work.
(Grin)

More lump-of-labor bullshit. It's a fallacy.

It's not the lump-of-labor fallacy,

I'm not going to speak for George, but the graph to which I posted a
link shows that manufacturing employment is falling off

Big deal. Switzerland doesn't manufacture any cars, airplanes, ships,
etc., and the Swiss are quite rich.

They had banking that was hidden from prying eyes, since that was
destroyed by Obama they have become just another bunch of bankers and
not really very useful for an offshore banking center.

The NSA and CIA attack all the Banking centers.

--
*Rumination*

Obama extortion and money laundering scheme

Gunner Asch

2015-02-18 22:45:34 UTC

On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 13:56:04 -0600, F. George McDuffee

Post by F. George McDuffee
On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 10:08:10 -0800, Gunner Asch

Post by Gunner Asch
http://www.ctemag.com/aa_pages/2015/150108-Robots.html
Ill bet these could easily replace a Leftwinger at work.
(Grin)

*********************************
It is well to remember that one employer's workers are
another employer's customers.
While automation/robotics can indeed "micro" optimize one
employer's operations, if widely applied, and with no other
adjustments, it will be quickly fatal to the ==>existing<==
debt based consumer [est. 70% of GDP consumer based]
economy.
This is not to say that a new automation/robotic based
economy will be worse than what we have (it may well be
better), but it will be very different.

Does that mean we can send illegal aliens back to wherever they came
from and fire them from working in machine shops across the US?

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child,
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats."
PJ O'Rourke

Stormin Mormon

2015-02-18 23:40:47 UTC

Post by Ed Huntress
On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 13:56:04 -0600, F. George McDuffee

Post by F. George McDuffee
This is not to say that a new automation/robotic based
economy will be worse than what we have (it may well be
better), but it will be very different.

Does that mean we can send illegal aliens back to wherever they came
from and fire them from working in machine shops across the US?

Wait until we get illegal cobots who are easily
offended and blow up when they count down to
zero.

-
.
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
. www.lds.org
.
.

Stormin Mormon

2015-02-18 23:43:08 UTC

Post by Gunner Asch
Does that mean we can send illegal
aliens back to wherever they came
from and fire them from working in
machine shops across the US?

You can expect some easily offended types
to call you names. As for me, I'd sure like
to see the nation's laws better respected.

Oh, hey, and that includes border, and
immigration laws.

-
.
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
. www.lds.org
.
.

Rudy Canoza

2015-02-19 00:34:53 UTC

Post by F. George McDuffee
On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 10:08:10 -0800, Gunner Asch

Post by Gunner Asch
http://www.ctemag.com/aa_pages/2015/150108-Robots.html
Ill bet these could easily replace a Leftwinger at work.
(Grin)

*********************************
It is well to remember that one employer's workers are
another employer's customers blah blah blah

Robots are going to mean more manufacturing work returning to the U.S.:

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-robots-jobs-20150211-story.html

news13

2015-02-19 03:20:12 UTC

Post by Gunner Asch
http://www.ctemag.com/aa_pages/2015/150108-Robots.html

Just upgraded robots from sensor improvements. It is still a machine
being programmed to carry out repetitive tasks.

Post by Gunner Asch
Ill bet these could easily replace a Leftwinger at work.

That is coming, but they'll still want right wingers to run around
feeding supplies to the robot/cobot that took away their job. They'll
still have their floor sweeping jobs for a while longer as those
"robotic" floor cleaners still need a lot of development for industrial
use.

StarDust

2015-02-19 05:53:47 UTC