Discussion:
Anyone using Fusible Alloys?
(too old to reply)
Brewertr
2003-10-20 03:06:39 UTC
Permalink
What are your experiences with Fusible Alloys? How do you use them?

For those that don't know some Fusible Metal Alloys have a melting point equal
to warm or hot water but much less than boiling water. Fusable Alloys on
Turbine Blades and Thin Walled parts work great.

I visited a shop Friday that uses Clay to fill castings to dampen excessive
vibration during turning operations. The clay allows them to run the parts a
little faster but is still slow. The clay adds some dampening but is not hard
and the RPM is low to keep the centrifugal force from flinging the clay out of
the casting. I have used clay on turning and milling for very short run
castings and heat sinks but this company's business is exclusively castings
where vibration is the primary issue.

Low Melting Point Fusable Alloys are expensive but because they are reusable in
the long run they seem to be very cost effective to me. On the parts that I saw
the feeds & speeds could be increased by 5-10X and the quality would be greatly
improved.

Tom
Glen
2003-10-20 04:12:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brewertr
What are your experiences with Fusible Alloys? How do you use them?
For those that don't know some Fusible Metal Alloys have a melting point equal
to warm or hot water but much less than boiling water. Fusable Alloys on
Turbine Blades and Thin Walled parts work great.
I visited a shop Friday that uses Clay to fill castings to dampen excessive
vibration during turning operations. The clay allows them to run the parts a
little faster but is still slow. The clay adds some dampening but is not hard
and the RPM is low to keep the centrifugal force from flinging the clay out of
the casting. I have used clay on turning and milling for very short run
castings and heat sinks but this company's business is exclusively castings
where vibration is the primary issue.
Low Melting Point Fusable Alloys are expensive but because they are reusable in
the long run they seem to be very cost effective to me. On the parts that I saw
the feeds & speeds could be increased by 5-10X and the quality would be greatly
improved.
I used Cerrobend Friday (158 degrees F) My helper was making a ball
center in the end of a ramrod and questioned the radius of the
original. Two minutes later I had poured a little Cerrobend in the
hole, dropped it out and set it up on the comparator.
I use it for it's namesake as well, to bend copper pipe to tighter
bends for coolant piping. Also, fixturing, it is the perfect answer
for the occasional difficult to hold shape. I made a steel box with
clamping ears, a little heat from a propane torch to melt the metal
and one can set an irregular shape in it to machine when it hardens.
Hot water releases the part when done, doesn't even damage the paint!
Cliff Huprich
2003-10-20 08:44:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brewertr
Fusable Alloys on
Turbine Blades and Thin Walled parts work great.
Cast Zinc works too with less environmental risk.
--
Cliff
brewertr
2003-10-20 16:05:24 UTC
Permalink
Cliff,

In this particular case cast zinc's higher melting temperature is a
negative not a positive. Fusible Alloys release/melt in hot water,
much easier to use in this application than melting or removing zinc
from the finished part.

Tom
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by Brewertr
Fusable Alloys on
Turbine Blades and Thin Walled parts work great.
Cast Zinc works too with less environmental risk.
MM
2003-10-20 17:11:06 UTC
Permalink
Brewster,

I use cerrobend, and other bismuth type alloys, once in a while for weird
shaped or thin wall parts. A friends shop uses it all the time, they do wave
guides.

Besides the low melting temp, thae other nice thing is that it expands when
it cools.

Regards

Mark
Post by Brewertr
What are your experiences with Fusible Alloys? How do you use them?
For those that don't know some Fusible Metal Alloys have a melting point equal
to warm or hot water but much less than boiling water. Fusable Alloys on
Turbine Blades and Thin Walled parts work great.
I visited a shop Friday that uses Clay to fill castings to dampen excessive
vibration during turning operations. The clay allows them to run the parts a
little faster but is still slow. The clay adds some dampening but is not hard
and the RPM is low to keep the centrifugal force from flinging the clay out of
the casting. I have used clay on turning and milling for very short run
castings and heat sinks but this company's business is exclusively castings
where vibration is the primary issue.
Low Melting Point Fusable Alloys are expensive but because they are reusable in
the long run they seem to be very cost effective to me. On the parts that I saw
the feeds & speeds could be increased by 5-10X and the quality would be greatly
improved.
Tom
Cliff Huprich
2003-10-20 19:38:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by MM
I use cerrobend, and other bismuth type alloys, once in a while for weird
shaped or thin wall parts. A friends shop uses it all the time, they do wave
guides.
Bismuth, Lead, Tin ..... What does the MSD say?

www.grantmfg.com/Data%20Sheets/158.html

Section 9: Special Handling Information
Ventilation: Required to maintain TLV's
Respiratory Protection: Fume Mask required.
Eye Protection: Wear protective goggles.
Skin Protection: Use protective gloves when handling material.
Post by MM
Besides the low melting temp, thae other nice thing is that it expands when
it cools.
So the part would loosen?

Just playing the devil's advocate ....
--
Cliff
MM
2003-10-20 21:13:42 UTC
Permalink
Cliff,

Shame on ya...

Generally speaking, you use the stuff to fill pockets, so the material locks
itself in.

I've seen 1-1/2lb. wave guides machined out of 500lb blocks. Lot's of
pockets and channels, 2-3" inch high .040-.060" thick walls between, insane
tolerances. Without this stuff, most would be nearly impossible to make.

Regards

Mark
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by MM
I use cerrobend, and other bismuth type alloys, once in a while for weird
shaped or thin wall parts. A friends shop uses it all the time, they do wave
guides.
Bismuth, Lead, Tin ..... What does the MSD say?
www.grantmfg.com/Data%20Sheets/158.html
Section 9: Special Handling Information
Ventilation: Required to maintain TLV's
Respiratory Protection: Fume Mask required.
Eye Protection: Wear protective goggles.
Skin Protection: Use protective gloves when handling material.
Post by MM
Besides the low melting temp, thae other nice thing is that it expands when
it cools.
So the part would loosen?
Just playing the devil's advocate ....
--
Cliff
Cliff Huprich
2003-10-21 05:15:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by brewertr
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by MM
I use cerrobend, and other bismuth type alloys, once in a while for weird
shaped or thin wall parts. A friends shop uses it all the time, they do
wave guides.
Besides the low melting temp, the other nice thing is that it expands when
it cools.
So the part would loosen?
Cliff,
Shame on ya...
Generally speaking, you use the stuff to fill pockets, so the material locks
itself in.
Mark,
Tom wrote:
[
Fusable Alloys on Turbine Blades and Thin Walled parts work great.
]

Turbine blades, at least, are external encapsulation. If the material
expands as it cools .... it would be like a thermal shrink-fit in reverse <G>.
Post by brewertr
I've seen 1-1/2lb. wave guides machined out of 500lb blocks. Lot's of
pockets and channels, 2-3" inch high .040-.060" thick walls between, insane
tolerances. Without this stuff, most would be nearly impossible to make.
Saw phased-array radar antennas being machined at TI in Dallas
once ...

What's the inverse thermal expansion? I'd think you might get some
distortion ....

BYW, I sort of thought you only got such effects when you had a phase
change in the material ...
--
Cliff
MM
2003-10-21 05:48:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cliff Huprich
Turbine blades, at least, are external encapsulation. If the material
expands as it cools .... it would be like a thermal shrink-fit in reverse <G>.
When I have to machine a weird part like this, I machine a cavity in a
block. You can then position the part in the cavity with pins or some other
precise features. You fill the space between the part and the walls of the
cavity an wail away.

Most turbine blade machining I've seen is four or five axis.
Post by Cliff Huprich
Saw phased-array radar antennas being machined at TI in Dallas
once ...
What's the inverse thermal expansion? I'd think you might get some
distortion ....
I have no idea. I do know it's not enough to affect accuracy. Of course your
set up has to be bullet proof ( just like any other precision operation)
Post by Cliff Huprich
BYW, I sort of thought you only got such effects when you had a phase
change in the material ...
Are you talking about the expansion ? Well.. the stuff I use crystalizes as
it cools. Sometimes the surface looks like a lead geode, great big facets
and points.

Regards

Mark
Cliff Huprich
2003-10-21 07:43:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by MM
Post by Cliff Huprich
Turbine blades, at least, are external encapsulation. If the material
expands as it cools .... it would be like a thermal shrink-fit in reverse
<G>.
When I have to machine a weird part like this, I machine a cavity in a
block. You can then position the part in the cavity with pins or some other
precise features. You fill the space between the part and the walls of the
cavity an wail away.
Most turbine blade machining I've seen is four or five axis.
Some is a little more. Depends a little on how you count.
Post by MM
Post by Cliff Huprich
BYW, I sort of thought you only got such effects when you had a phase
change in the material ...
Are you talking about the expansion ?
Yes.
Post by MM
Well.. the stuff I use crystalizes as
it cools. Sometimes the surface looks like a lead geode, great big facets
and points.
But once it's a solid it expands as it cools?
--
Cliff
BottleBob
2003-10-25 01:13:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by MM
Besides the low melting temp, thae other nice thing is that it expands when
it cools.
So the part would loosen?
Cliff:

If a part was put in a "box" and then surrounded with Cerrobend/Wood's
metal or whatever, and the material expanded when it cooled, why do you
think the part would loosen? It would be "squeezed" on all four sides,
would it not?
--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob
Cliff Huprich
2003-10-25 05:38:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by MM
Besides the low melting temp, thae other nice thing is that it expands
when
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by MM
it cools.
So the part would loosen?
If a part was put in a "box" and then surrounded with Cerrobend/Wood's
metal or whatever, and the material expanded when it cooled, why do you
think the part would loosen? It would be "squeezed" on all four sides,
would it not?
It's (what is claimed) the exact reverse of a thermal shrink-fit
tool holder. They expand when heated ... and shrink when cooled ...
If the reverse is true, as claimed, they would expand when cooled,
right? What would happen to the ID holding the tool/part?
--
Cliff
BottleBob
2003-10-25 05:55:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by MM
Besides the low melting temp, thae other nice thing is that it expands
when
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by MM
it cools.
So the part would loosen?
If a part was put in a "box" and then surrounded with Cerrobend/Wood's
metal or whatever, and the material expanded when it cooled, why do you
think the part would loosen? It would be "squeezed" on all four sides,
would it not?
It's (what is claimed) the exact reverse of a thermal shrink-fit
tool holder. They expand when heated ... and shrink when cooled ...
If the reverse is true, as claimed, they would expand when cooled,
right? What would happen to the ID holding the tool/part?
Cliff:

The subject wasn't shrink fit tool holders, or the thermal expansion of
steel, but using fusible alloys to hold parts to be machined.

==========================================
http://www.alchemycastings.com/lead-products/fusible.htm

Because Fusible Alloys expand and push into mould detail when they
solidify, they are excellent for duplication and reproduction processes.
This characteristic of expansion and/or non-shrinkage, combined with low
melting temperature and ease of handling, are the major reasons for
their extensive use.
==========================================
--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob
Cliff Huprich
2003-10-25 08:56:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by MM
Besides the low melting temp, thae other nice thing is that it expands
when
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by MM
it cools.
So the part would loosen?
If a part was put in a "box" and then surrounded with
Cerrobend/Wood's
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
metal or whatever, and the material expanded when it cooled, why do you
think the part would loosen? It would be "squeezed" on all four sides,
would it not?
It's (what is claimed) the exact reverse of a thermal shrink-fit
tool holder. They expand when heated ... and shrink when cooled ...
If the reverse is true, as claimed, they would expand when cooled,
right? What would happen to the ID holding the tool/part?
The subject wasn't shrink fit tool holders, or the thermal expansion of
steel, but using fusible alloys to hold parts to be machined.
BB,
You are on that path again ...

I used simple examples <G>.
Post by BottleBob
==========================================
http://www.alchemycastings.com/lead-products/fusible.htm
Because Fusible Alloys expand and push into mould detail when they
solidify, they are excellent for duplication and reproduction processes.
That's an *internal* use, not external.

IF the tool holders get a *larger* ID when they expand what
happens when THIS material expands (cools) about what's to
be a captive object for machining? What would happen if it
were a tool shank, as an example?

Have you been listening to jb again? You know about the mind rot,
right?

Now, about that path ... <G>
--
Cliff
BottleBob
2003-10-25 14:34:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by MM
Besides the low melting temp, thae other nice thing is that it expands
when
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by MM
it cools.
So the part would loosen?
If a part was put in a "box" and then surrounded with
Cerrobend/Wood's
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
metal or whatever, and the material expanded when it cooled, why do you
think the part would loosen? It would be "squeezed" on all four sides,
would it not?
It's (what is claimed) the exact reverse of a thermal shrink-fit
tool holder. They expand when heated ... and shrink when cooled ...
If the reverse is true, as claimed, they would expand when cooled,
right? What would happen to the ID holding the tool/part?
The subject wasn't shrink fit tool holders, or the thermal expansion of
steel, but using fusible alloys to hold parts to be machined.
BB,
You are on that path again ...
I used simple examples <G>.
Cliff:

You used an example that was unrelated to what was being discussed
(workholding for machining parts). And by using your unrelated example
you arrived at a conclusion that would be incorrect when applied to
using fusible alloys in "box fixtures" for holding irregular shaped
parts for machining. I've used Cerrobend to "fixture" parts, and they
didn't "loosen" upon cooling as you implied.
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
==========================================
http://www.alchemycastings.com/lead-products/fusible.htm
Because Fusible Alloys expand and push into mould detail when they
solidify, they are excellent for duplication and reproduction processes.
That's an *internal* use, not external.
The use was irrelevant to my point that many fusible alloys expand when
cooled.
Post by Cliff Huprich
IF the tool holders get a *larger* ID when they expand what
happens when THIS material expands (cools) about what's to
be a captive object for machining? What would happen if it
were a tool shank, as an example?
Think of it as if water were being poured between your "fixture box"
and the part inside it that is to be retained, and then freezing the
water. The expansion of the water will press against the sides of the
box AND your part. It won't pull AWAY from your part.

Now *IF* someone tried to make and use a shrink-fit tool holder made
out of Cerrobend, then I'm sure what you're saying would be correct.
But who in their right mind would try to make a shrink-fit tool holder
out of such a soft material that melted at boiling water temperatures?
Post by Cliff Huprich
Have you been listening to jb again? You know about the mind rot,
right?
Now, about that path ... <G>
What you were saying could have been interpreted to mean that
Cerrobend, and other fusible alloys of that ilk, might be inappropriate
for work holding BECAUSE of their property of expansion upon cooling. I
just didn't think giving that impression was accurate or helpful.
--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob
Cliff Huprich
2003-10-25 22:10:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by MM
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by MM
Besides the low melting temp, thae other nice thing is that it
expands
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
when
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by MM
it cools.
So the part would loosen?
If a part was put in a "box" and then surrounded with
Cerrobend/Wood's
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
metal or whatever, and the material expanded when it cooled, why do you
think the part would loosen? It would be "squeezed" on all four sides,
would it not?
It's (what is claimed) the exact reverse of a thermal shrink-fit
tool holder. They expand when heated ... and shrink when cooled ...
If the reverse is true, as claimed, they would expand when cooled,
right? What would happen to the ID holding the tool/part?
The subject wasn't shrink fit tool holders, or the thermal
expansion of
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
steel, but using fusible alloys to hold parts to be machined.
BB,
You are on that path again ...
I used simple examples <G>.
You used an example that was unrelated to what was being discussed
(workholding for machining parts).
Not at all, BB.
Post by MM
And by using your unrelated example
you arrived at a conclusion that would be incorrect when applied to
using fusible alloys in "box fixtures" for holding irregular shaped
parts for machining.
Expansion is expansion. Contraction is contraction.
Be it a toolholder getting warmer/cooler or anything else.
Post by MM
I've used Cerrobend to "fixture" parts, and they
didn't "loosen" upon cooling as you implied.
Then perhaps it does not expand when cooled as a solid ....... hmmmm ?
Post by MM
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
==========================================
http://www.alchemycastings.com/lead-products/fusible.htm
Because Fusible Alloys expand and push into mould detail when they
solidify, they are excellent for duplication and reproduction processes.
That's an *internal* use, not external.
The use was irrelevant to my point that many fusible alloys expand when
cooled.
Not at all irrelevant, BB.

If you have an expanding mandrel does it matter if you are trying to
hold a part by it's OD or ID? Do you get better clamping on the OD when
you expand the mandrel on the part's OD?
Post by MM
Post by Cliff Huprich
IF the tool holders get a *larger* ID when they expand what
happens when THIS material expands (cools) about what's to
be a captive object for machining? What would happen if it
were a tool shank, as an example?
Think of it as if water were being poured between your "fixture box"
and the part inside it that is to be retained, and then freezing the
water. The expansion of the water will press against the sides of the
box AND your part. It won't pull AWAY from your part.
ONLY if it freezes from the outside constrained tray inwards.

What happens to that shrink-fit toolholder as you heat it and it
expands? Does the ID get smaller?
Post by MM
Now *IF* someone tried to make and use a shrink-fit tool holder made
out of Cerrobend, then I'm sure what you're saying would be correct.
Nope. IF it expands as it gets cooler .....
Post by MM
But who in their right mind would try to make a shrink-fit tool holder
out of such a soft material that melted at boiling water temperatures?
Poor jb comes to mind ...
Post by MM
Post by Cliff Huprich
Have you been listening to jb again? You know about the mind rot,
right?
Now, about that path ... <G>
What you were saying could have been interpreted to mean that
Cerrobend, and other fusible alloys of that ilk, might be inappropriate
for work holding BECAUSE of their property of expansion upon cooling.
Internal or external surfaces?

BTW, Can YOU find any expansion/contraction thermal curves for such
alloys? I did a brief search (for Cerrobend) and had no luck .... I'd think
it might be important to know ..... <G>.
Post by MM
I just didn't think giving that impression was accurate or helpful.
As I stated before, I think a phase change is needed (as in water) to get
expansion with cooling. I don't see that in a solid low melt alloy ...

BUT, assuming it's true in this case .... and it expands .... how could it
expand on both the ID & OD at the same time? Think of a solid chunk
with a circle drawn on it. The material expands. YOU are saying the ID
of the circle would get larger while it's OD gets smaller .....

This is sort of like Roger & "NOPE" which led to Flash and the cabbages
or your dowel pins and the Null Set ....

IF I get bored enough later I may write you a little essay on that circle
(actually, any closed curve OR surface) and the conservation laws. It's
probably at least as important a concept as the Null Set or the Theory
of Limits (or the concept of conservation laws).
--
Cliff
BottleBob
2003-10-26 00:55:32 UTC
Permalink
Cliff:

Let me try to simplify this by asking a few questions.

Are you doubting that many fusible alloys expand when they
solidify/cool?

*IF* we have say a 6" X 6" X 2" box, and we put a 3" X 3" X 1" straight
sided part in this box and then pour in some fusible alloy that expands
when it solidifies/cools to almost the the 1" height of the part . Will
the expansion of the
fusible alloy pull away from the part or "squeeze" the part? Realize
the while the material is solidifying/cooling, and expanding, it's going
to be pushing on it's own molecules AND the walls of the outer box.

Now conversely, say we have the same boxes as above but we pour in some
lead that shrinks when it solidifies/cools. Will the shrinkage of the
lead pull away from the part or "squeeze" the part?
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
And by using your unrelated example
you arrived at a conclusion that would be incorrect when applied to
using fusible alloys in "box fixtures" for holding irregular shaped
parts for machining.
Expansion is expansion. Contraction is contraction.
Be it a toolholder getting warmer/cooler or anything else.
You know it's not that simple since different geometric forms have
different vectors during expansion. The shrink-fit toolholder being one
case where the ID grows with the OD due to it's geometry.
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
I've used Cerrobend to "fixture" parts, and they
didn't "loosen" upon cooling as you implied.
Then perhaps it does not expand when cooled as a solid ....... hmmmm ?
Or perhaps the Cerrobend pushed equally in all directions, upon it's
own molecules AND the outer box as well as the inner part.
Post by Cliff Huprich
If you have an expanding mandrel does it matter if you are trying to
hold a part by it's OD or ID? Do you get better clamping on the OD when
you expand the mandrel on the part's OD?
I don't understand your question, or see how it relates to the
expansion of Cerrobend. It's my understanding that expanding mandrels
hold parts on their ID. I've never seen an expanding mandrel hold a
part on it's OD. That would be a collet or a chuck.
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Think of it as if water were being poured between your "fixture box"
and the part inside it that is to be retained, and then freezing the
water. The expansion of the water will press against the sides of the
box AND your part. It won't pull AWAY from your part.
ONLY if it freezes from the outside constrained tray inwards.
At some point in the water's solidifying/cooling, it will probably push
in every direction it is free to push in. That would allow it to push
the outer walls of the box as well as the inner part.
Post by Cliff Huprich
What happens to that shrink-fit toolholder as you heat it and it
expands? Does the ID get smaller?
The expansion of the ID of an already solid shrink-fit toolholer is an
artifact of it's geometric form. I don't think you can use this
particular case to support a general position where a liquid fusible
alloy would pull away from a part inside a box.
Post by Cliff Huprich
BTW, Can YOU find any expansion/contraction thermal curves for such
alloys? I did a brief search (for Cerrobend) and had no luck .... I'd think
it might be important to know ..... <G>.
Not exactly sure what you're looking for, but here's a site that give
some information on fusible alloys:

===================================================
http://www.harpellassociates.com/a/a-fusible.htm

When Bismuth is alloyed with other metals, such as Lead, Tin, Cadmium
and Indium, this expansion is modified according to the relative
percentages of
Bismuth and other components present. As a general rule, Bismuth alloys
of approximately 50 percent Bismuth exhibit little change of volume
during solidification. Alloys containing more than this tend to expand
during solidification and those containing less tend to shrink during
solidification.
After solidification, alloys containing both Bismuth and Lead in
optimum proportions grow in the solid state many hours afterwards.
Bismuth alloys that do not contain Lead expand during solidification,
with negligible shrinkage while cooling to room temperature.
==================================================
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
I just didn't think giving that impression was accurate or helpful.
As I stated before, I think a phase change is needed (as in water) to get
expansion with cooling. I don't see that in a solid low melt alloy ...
People have already mentioned seeing a crystalline surface structure
forming when the fusible alloy solidifies.
Post by Cliff Huprich
BUT, assuming it's true in this case .... and it expands .... how could it
expand on both the ID & OD at the same time? Think of a solid chunk
with a circle drawn on it. The material expands. YOU are saying the ID
of the circle would get larger while it's OD gets smaller .....
When you make popsicles in your ice cube tray, do the popsicles shrink
away from the popsicle sticks? If THAT were the case then we wouldn't
even HAVE such a thing as popsicles, we'd have to eat them with a fork.
Post by Cliff Huprich
IF I get bored enough later I may write you a little essay on that circle
(actually, any closed curve OR surface) and the conservation laws. It's
probably at least as important a concept as the Null Set or the Theory
of Limits (or the concept of conservation laws).
No No, not your mythical "sufficiently large value of zero"
tautological theory of limits again? LOL
--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob
Cliff Huprich
2003-10-26 06:26:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by BottleBob
Let me try to simplify this by asking a few questions.
Are you doubting that many fusible alloys expand when they
solidify/cool?
Which of the two are you asking about? Be clear ...
Post by BottleBob
*IF* we have say a 6" X 6" X 2" box, and we put a 3" X 3" X 1" straight
sided part in this box and then pour in some fusible alloy that expands
when it solidifies/cools to almost the the 1" height of the part . Will
the expansion of the
fusible alloy pull away from the part or "squeeze" the part?
Probably.
Post by BottleBob
Realize
the while the material is solidifying/cooling, and expanding, it's going
to be pushing on it's own molecules AND the walls of the outer box.
And upwards?
Post by BottleBob
Now conversely, say we have the same boxes as above but we pour in some
lead that shrinks when it solidifies/cools. Will the shrinkage of the
lead pull away from the part or "squeeze" the part?
Have you added a flux? What are things made of?
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
And by using your unrelated example
you arrived at a conclusion that would be incorrect when applied to
using fusible alloys in "box fixtures" for holding irregular shaped
parts for machining.
Expansion is expansion. Contraction is contraction.
Be it a toolholder getting warmer/cooler or anything else.
You know it's not that simple since different geometric forms have
different vectors during expansion.
Huh??? It's a uniform linear effect, all else being constant.
Post by BottleBob
The shrink-fit toolholder being one
case where the ID grows with the OD due to it's geometry.
So it's an exception because it has two circles?
When does the ID exceed the OD?

(BTW, Have you ever used a post or CAM system to scale a toolpath?)
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
I've used Cerrobend to "fixture" parts, and they
didn't "loosen" upon cooling as you implied.
Then perhaps it does not expand when cooled as a solid ....... hmmmm ?
Or perhaps the Cerrobend pushed equally in all directions, upon it's
own molecules AND the outer box as well as the inner part.
This is actually your first post where you want to add a box .. perhaps
it's the box shrinking as it cools ? LOL ....
Your story keeps changing ..
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
If you have an expanding mandrel does it matter if you are trying to
hold a part by it's OD or ID? Do you get better clamping on the OD when
you expand the mandrel on the part's OD?
I don't understand your question, or see how it relates to the
expansion of Cerrobend. It's my understanding that expanding mandrels
hold parts on their ID. I've never seen an expanding mandrel hold a
part on it's OD. That would be a collet or a chuck.
Collet/mandrel ... answer the question ....
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Think of it as if water were being poured between your "fixture
box"
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
and the part inside it that is to be retained, and then freezing the
water. The expansion of the water will press against the sides of the
box AND your part. It won't pull AWAY from your part.
ONLY if it freezes from the outside constrained tray inwards.
At some point in the water's solidifying/cooling, it will probably push
in every direction it is free to push in. That would allow it to push
the outer walls of the box as well as the inner part.
Post by Cliff Huprich
What happens to that shrink-fit toolholder as you heat it and it
expands? Does the ID get smaller?
The expansion of the ID of an already solid shrink-fit toolholer is an
artifact of it's geometric form. I don't think you can use this
particular case to support a general position where a liquid fusible
alloy would pull away from a part inside a box.
Not the question ..... and NOW it's liquid .... you been taking jb's meds?
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
BTW, Can YOU find any expansion/contraction thermal curves for such
alloys? I did a brief search (for Cerrobend) and had no luck .... I'd think
it might be important to know ..... <G>.
Not exactly sure what you're looking for, but here's a site that give
===================================================
http://www.harpellassociates.com/a/a-fusible.htm
When Bismuth is alloyed with other metals, such as Lead, Tin, Cadmium
and Indium, this expansion is modified according to the relative
percentages of
Bismuth and other components present. As a general rule, Bismuth alloys
of approximately 50 percent Bismuth exhibit little change of volume
during solidification. Alloys containing more than this tend to expand
during solidification and those containing less tend to shrink during
solidification.
After solidification, alloys containing both Bismuth and Lead in
optimum proportions grow in the solid state many hours afterwards.
Bismuth alloys that do not contain Lead expand during solidification,
with negligible shrinkage while cooling to room temperature.
==================================================
The latter is a phase change from liquid to solid.

The question is about changes in the solid as it gets cooler .... does
it expand?
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
I just didn't think giving that impression was accurate or helpful.
As I stated before, I think a phase change is needed (as in water) to get
expansion with cooling. I don't see that in a solid low melt alloy ...
People have already mentioned seeing a crystalline surface structure
forming when the fusible alloy solidifies.
Not material to the issues.
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
BUT, assuming it's true in this case .... and it expands .... how could
it
Post by Cliff Huprich
expand on both the ID & OD at the same time? Think of a solid chunk
with a circle drawn on it. The material expands. YOU are saying the ID
of the circle would get larger while it's OD gets smaller .....
When you make popsicles in your ice cube tray, do the popsicles shrink
away from the popsicle sticks? If THAT were the case then we wouldn't
even HAVE such a thing as popsicles, we'd have to eat them with a fork.
You need to learn ....
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
IF I get bored enough later I may write you a little essay on that circle
(actually, any closed curve OR surface) and the conservation laws. It's
probably at least as important a concept as the Null Set or the Theory
of Limits (or the concept of conservation laws).
No No, not your mythical "sufficiently large value of zero"
tautological theory of limits again? LOL
Closed curves? See "Niven's law" at
http://www.math.siu.edu/kocik/tm/tm-dic.htm

Also "Rotating Cylinders and the Possibility of Global Causality Violation".

<GGGG>
--
Cliff
BottleBob
2003-10-26 14:00:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Let me try to simplify this by asking a few questions.
Are you doubting that many fusible alloys expand when they
solidify/cool?
Which of the two are you asking about? Be clear ...
Cliff:

Sounds like you're being Cliffasive again (copytrite BB 10-26-03). But
in the off chance that you're not, let me separate the questions:

Are you doubting that many fusible alloys expand when they
solidify?

Are you doubting that many fusible alloys expand when they
cool?
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
*IF* we have say a 6" X 6" X 2" box, and we put a 3" X 3" X 1" straight
sided part in this box and then pour in some fusible alloy that expands
when it solidifies/cools to almost the the 1" height of the part . Will
the expansion of the
fusible alloy pull away from the part or "squeeze" the part?
Probably.
Probably what, pull away, or squeeze? So are you conceding that you
have absolutely NO idea whatsoever WHAT it will do?

Well, in the interest of science, I did a little experiment last night
at home that anyone can repeat. I don't have any expanding Cerrobend,
but I do have access to expanding water. So I got an old aluminum pan,
found a glass with tapered sides (small at the base - large at the top),
put the glass in the pan (base side down of course) and added about 1"
of water around it, then put it in the freezer. This morning I took
the pan&glass out of the refrigerator. Then I tried to pull the glass
out of the ice. I couldn't get it out, even by supporting my wrists on
the pan and squeezing up with all my force. That glass was REALLY STUCK
in there. And it was smooth with no undercuts or protrusions to hold
it. And while one experiment is hardly unimpeachable conclusive
evidence, it does tend put a damper on the "expand away from the part"
hypothesis.
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Realize
the while the material is solidifying/cooling, and expanding, it's going
to be pushing on it's own molecules AND the walls of the outer box.
And upwards?
Yes. And upwards. The ice in my little pan&glass experiment WAS
pushed upward on one side of the pan.
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Now conversely, say we have the same boxes as above but we pour in some
lead that shrinks when it solidifies/cools. Will the shrinkage of the
lead pull away from the part or "squeeze" the part?
Have you added a flux? What are things made of?
You're being Cliffasive again.
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
And by using your unrelated example
you arrived at a conclusion that would be incorrect when applied to
using fusible alloys in "box fixtures" for holding irregular shaped
parts for machining.
Expansion is expansion. Contraction is contraction.
Be it a toolholder getting warmer/cooler or anything else.
You know it's not that simple since different geometric forms have
different vectors during expansion.
Huh??? It's a uniform linear effect, all else being constant.
OH? Band-saw that shrink-fit toolholder in half axially and THEN heat
it up. Will the half-ID radius pull away from the original centerline
like a whole toolholder would?
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
The shrink-fit toolholder being one
case where the ID grows with the OD due to it's geometry.
So it's an exception because it has two circles?
Cut it in half, heat it up, and let's see what happens.
Post by Cliff Huprich
When does the ID exceed the OD?
When a person named Cliff starts applying his mythical "sufficiently
large value of zero" tautological "logic".
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Or perhaps the Cerrobend pushed equally in all directions, upon it's
own molecules AND the outer box as well as the inner part.
This is actually your first post where you want to add a box .. perhaps
it's the box shrinking as it cools ? LOL ....
Your story keeps changing ..
Sorry to contradict, but you're incorrect. My very FIRST post to this
thread mentions using a "box". Here, let me refresh your faulty memory:

============================================
From:
BottleBob <***@earthlink.net>

Newsgroups:
alt.machines.cnc
Subject:
Re: Anyone using Fusible Alloys?

Date:
Sat, 25 Oct 2003 01:13:44 GMT
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Besides the low melting temp, thae other nice thing is that it expands when
it cools.
So the part would loosen?
Cliff:

If a part was put in a "box" and then surrounded with
Cerrobend/Wood's
metal or whatever, and the material expanded when it cooled, why do you
think the part would loosen? It would be "squeezed" on all four sides,
would it not?
===================================================

I also mentioned using "box fixtures" in an additional post to this
thread. You replied to both of my posts where I mentioned using a
"box", so it's not that you're missing some posts.
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
If you have an expanding mandrel does it matter if you are trying to
hold a part by it's OD or ID? Do you get better clamping on the OD when
you expand the mandrel on the part's OD?
I don't understand your question, or see how it relates to the
expansion of Cerrobend. It's my understanding that expanding mandrels
hold parts on their ID. I've never seen an expanding mandrel hold a
part on it's OD. That would be a collet or a chuck.
Collet/mandrel ... answer the question ....
You talked about using an expanding mandrel to clamp on the ID and THEN
on the OD. If you wish me to answer the question, please rephrase it
into something intelligible.
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
What happens to that shrink-fit toolholder as you heat it and it
expands? Does the ID get smaller?
The expansion of the ID of an already solid shrink-fit toolholer is an
artifact of it's geometric form. I don't think you can use this
particular case to support a general position where a liquid fusible
alloy would pull away from a part inside a box.
Not the question ..... and NOW it's liquid .... you been taking jb's meds?
The entire subject is about using fusible alloys. You heat them up,
pour them into your holding fixture as a LIQUID, and let them solidify.
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Not exactly sure what you're looking for, but here's a site that give
===================================================
http://www.harpellassociates.com/a/a-fusible.htm
When Bismuth is alloyed with other metals, such as Lead, Tin, Cadmium
and Indium, this expansion is modified according to the relative
percentages of
Bismuth and other components present. As a general rule, Bismuth alloys
of approximately 50 percent Bismuth exhibit little change of volume
during solidification. Alloys containing more than this tend to expand
during solidification and those containing less tend to shrink during
solidification.
After solidification, alloys containing both Bismuth and Lead in
optimum proportions grow in the solid state many hours afterwards.
Bismuth alloys that do not contain Lead expand during solidification,
with negligible shrinkage while cooling to room temperature.
==================================================
The latter is a phase change from liquid to solid.
So?
Post by Cliff Huprich
The question is about changes in the solid as it gets cooler .... does
it expand?
That was *ONE* question, but not the *ONLY* question. Did you even
bother to GO to the site listed above and look at the charts? One chart
shows the expansion of various fusible alloys after casting. The time
frames go from 2 minutes to 21 DAYS! And after 21 days, some fusible
alloys are STILL expanding. And that's on a 2" X 2" X 10" bar.
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
When you make popsicles in your ice cube tray, do the popsicles shrink
away from the popsicle sticks? If THAT were the case then we wouldn't
even HAVE such a thing as popsicles, we'd have to eat them with a fork.
You need to learn ....
I'm always willing to learn something I don't know, from ANY source.
Did you perhaps have something you wished to teach me about making
popsicles?
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
IF I get bored enough later I may write you a little essay on that circle
(actually, any closed curve OR surface) and the conservation laws. It's
probably at least as important a concept as the Null Set or the Theory
of Limits (or the concept of conservation laws).
No No, not your mythical "sufficiently large value of zero"
tautological theory of limits again? LOL
Closed curves? See "Niven's law" at
http://www.math.siu.edu/kocik/tm/tm-dic.htm
Now Larry Niven is/was a sci-fi writer I DO like.
Post by Cliff Huprich
Also "Rotating Cylinders and the Possibility of Global Causality Violation".
Yeah, that guy Clifford A Pickover sounds like he writes some
interesting stuff. A few of he earlier publications follow:
The Alien IQ Test (Basic Books, 1997), The Loom of God (Plenum, 1997),
Black Holes - A Traveler's Guide (Wiley, 1996)

Or maybe you just like him because he has the same first name as you.
--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob
Cliff Huprich
2003-10-26 14:20:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
IF I get bored enough later I may write you a little essay on that
circle
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
(actually, any closed curve OR surface) and the conservation laws. It's
probably at least as important a concept as the Null Set or the Theory
of Limits (or the concept of conservation laws).
No No, not your mythical "sufficiently large value of zero"
tautological theory of limits again? LOL
Closed curves? See "Niven's law" at
http://www.math.siu.edu/kocik/tm/tm-dic.htm
Now Larry Niven is/was a sci-fi writer I DO like.
Post by Cliff Huprich
Also "Rotating Cylinders and the Possibility of Global Causality
Violation".
Yeah, that guy Clifford A Pickover sounds like he writes some
The Alien IQ Test (Basic Books, 1997), The Loom of God (Plenum, 1997),
Black Holes - A Traveler's Guide (Wiley, 1996)
Or maybe you just like him because he has the same first name as you.
And here I thought you said you liked Niven .....

<http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=%22Rotating+Cylinders+
and+the+Possibility+of+Global+Causality%22+Niven>
--
Cliff
BottleBob
2003-10-26 15:20:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Now Larry Niven is/was a sci-fi writer I DO like.
And here I thought you said you liked Niven .....
<http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=%22Rotating+Cylinders+
and+the+Possibility+of+Global+Causality%22+Niven>
Cliff:

I do like most of Niven's hard-core sci-fi, but I stay away from his
science fantasy. Some of Niven's books I've read:

Neutron Star
Ringworld
Ringworld Engineers
The Mote in God's Eye
Lucifer's Hammer
Dream Park
The Barsoom Project
Integral Trees
Footfall

But I've never heard of a book entitled "Rotating Cylinders and the
Possibility of Global Causality Violation". And I don't read short
stories or anthologies. I like to LOSE myself in a story, and that's
hard for me to do if the story is only a few pages or 10's of pages
long.
--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob
Thomas Nulla
2003-10-26 18:22:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by BottleBob
I do like most of Niven's hard-core sci-fi, but I stay away from his
Neutron Star
Ringworld
Ringworld Engineers
The Mote in God's Eye
Lucifer's Hammer
Dream Park
The Barsoom Project
Integral Trees
Footfall
Might I suggest "A World Out of Time".

http://www.larryniven.org/reviews/95.htm
--
Thomas -email replies: remove delthis to reply-

http://home.austin.rr.com/tnulla/index.htm (high fidelity, liquid PC)
"The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That
is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and
denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism." -- Hermann Goering
Cliff Huprich
2003-10-26 23:04:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by BottleBob
But I've never heard of a book entitled "Rotating Cylinders and the
Possibility of Global Causality Violation".
Short story.
Post by BottleBob
And I don't read short
stories or anthologies. I like to LOSE myself in a story, and that's
hard for me to do if the story is only a few pages or 10's of pages
long.
Too bad for you then.
Niven's best arena is the short story by a wide margin.
--
Cliff
Gary H. Lucas
2003-10-27 23:20:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Let me try to simplify this by asking a few questions.
Are you doubting that many fusible alloys expand when they
solidify/cool?
Which of the two are you asking about? Be clear ...
Sounds like you're being Cliffasive again (copytrite BB 10-26-03). But
Are you doubting that many fusible alloys expand when they
solidify?
Are you doubting that many fusible alloys expand when they
cool?
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
*IF* we have say a 6" X 6" X 2" box, and we put a 3" X 3" X 1" straight
sided part in this box and then pour in some fusible alloy that expands
when it solidifies/cools to almost the the 1" height of the part .
Will
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
the expansion of the
fusible alloy pull away from the part or "squeeze" the part?
Probably.
Probably what, pull away, or squeeze? So are you conceding that you
have absolutely NO idea whatsoever WHAT it will do?
Well, in the interest of science, I did a little experiment last night
at home that anyone can repeat. I don't have any expanding Cerrobend,
but I do have access to expanding water. So I got an old aluminum pan,
found a glass with tapered sides (small at the base - large at the top),
put the glass in the pan (base side down of course) and added about 1"
of water around it, then put it in the freezer. This morning I took
the pan&glass out of the refrigerator. Then I tried to pull the glass
out of the ice. I couldn't get it out, even by supporting my wrists on
the pan and squeezing up with all my force. That glass was REALLY STUCK
in there. And it was smooth with no undercuts or protrusions to hold
it. And while one experiment is hardly unimpeachable conclusive
evidence, it does tend put a damper on the "expand away from the part"
hypothesis.
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Realize
the while the material is solidifying/cooling, and expanding, it's going
to be pushing on it's own molecules AND the walls of the outer box.
And upwards?
Yes. And upwards. The ice in my little pan&glass experiment WAS
pushed upward on one side of the pan.
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Now conversely, say we have the same boxes as above but we pour in some
lead that shrinks when it solidifies/cools. Will the shrinkage of the
lead pull away from the part or "squeeze" the part?
Have you added a flux? What are things made of?
You're being Cliffasive again.
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
And by using your unrelated example
you arrived at a conclusion that would be incorrect when applied to
using fusible alloys in "box fixtures" for holding irregular shaped
parts for machining.
Expansion is expansion. Contraction is contraction.
Be it a toolholder getting warmer/cooler or anything else.
You know it's not that simple since different geometric forms have
different vectors during expansion.
Huh??? It's a uniform linear effect, all else being constant.
OH? Band-saw that shrink-fit toolholder in half axially and THEN heat
it up. Will the half-ID radius pull away from the original centerline
like a whole toolholder would?
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
The shrink-fit toolholder being one
case where the ID grows with the OD due to it's geometry.
So it's an exception because it has two circles?
Cut it in half, heat it up, and let's see what happens.
Post by Cliff Huprich
When does the ID exceed the OD?
When a person named Cliff starts applying his mythical "sufficiently
large value of zero" tautological "logic".
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Or perhaps the Cerrobend pushed equally in all directions, upon it's
own molecules AND the outer box as well as the inner part.
This is actually your first post where you want to add a box ..
perhaps
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
it's the box shrinking as it cools ? LOL ....
Your story keeps changing ..
Sorry to contradict, but you're incorrect. My very FIRST post to this
============================================
alt.machines.cnc
Re: Anyone using Fusible Alloys?
Sat, 25 Oct 2003 01:13:44 GMT
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Besides the low melting temp, thae other nice thing is that it expands when
it cools.
So the part would loosen?
If a part was put in a "box" and then surrounded with
Cerrobend/Wood's
metal or whatever, and the material expanded when it cooled, why do you
think the part would loosen? It would be "squeezed" on all four sides,
would it not?
===================================================
I also mentioned using "box fixtures" in an additional post to this
thread. You replied to both of my posts where I mentioned using a
"box", so it's not that you're missing some posts.
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
If you have an expanding mandrel does it matter if you are trying to
hold a part by it's OD or ID? Do you get better clamping on the OD when
you expand the mandrel on the part's OD?
I don't understand your question, or see how it relates to the
expansion of Cerrobend. It's my understanding that expanding mandrels
hold parts on their ID. I've never seen an expanding mandrel hold a
part on it's OD. That would be a collet or a chuck.
Collet/mandrel ... answer the question ....
You talked about using an expanding mandrel to clamp on the ID and THEN
on the OD. If you wish me to answer the question, please rephrase it
into something intelligible.
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
What happens to that shrink-fit toolholder as you heat it and it
expands? Does the ID get smaller?
The expansion of the ID of an already solid shrink-fit toolholer is an
artifact of it's geometric form. I don't think you can use this
particular case to support a general position where a liquid fusible
alloy would pull away from a part inside a box.
Not the question ..... and NOW it's liquid .... you been taking jb's meds?
The entire subject is about using fusible alloys. You heat them up,
pour them into your holding fixture as a LIQUID, and let them solidify.
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Not exactly sure what you're looking for, but here's a site that give
===================================================
http://www.harpellassociates.com/a/a-fusible.htm
When Bismuth is alloyed with other metals, such as Lead, Tin, Cadmium
and Indium, this expansion is modified according to the relative
percentages of
Bismuth and other components present. As a general rule, Bismuth alloys
of approximately 50 percent Bismuth exhibit little change of volume
during solidification. Alloys containing more than this tend to expand
during solidification and those containing less tend to shrink during
solidification.
After solidification, alloys containing both Bismuth and Lead in
optimum proportions grow in the solid state many hours afterwards.
Bismuth alloys that do not contain Lead expand during solidification,
with negligible shrinkage while cooling to room temperature.
==================================================
The latter is a phase change from liquid to solid.
So?
Post by Cliff Huprich
The question is about changes in the solid as it gets cooler .... does
it expand?
That was *ONE* question, but not the *ONLY* question. Did you even
bother to GO to the site listed above and look at the charts? One chart
shows the expansion of various fusible alloys after casting. The time
frames go from 2 minutes to 21 DAYS! And after 21 days, some fusible
alloys are STILL expanding. And that's on a 2" X 2" X 10" bar.
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
When you make popsicles in your ice cube tray, do the popsicles shrink
away from the popsicle sticks? If THAT were the case then we wouldn't
even HAVE such a thing as popsicles, we'd have to eat them with a fork.
You need to learn ....
I'm always willing to learn something I don't know, from ANY source.
Did you perhaps have something you wished to teach me about making
popsicles?
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
IF I get bored enough later I may write you a little essay on that circle
(actually, any closed curve OR surface) and the conservation laws. It's
probably at least as important a concept as the Null Set or the Theory
of Limits (or the concept of conservation laws).
No No, not your mythical "sufficiently large value of zero"
tautological theory of limits again? LOL
Closed curves? See "Niven's law" at
http://www.math.siu.edu/kocik/tm/tm-dic.htm
Now Larry Niven is/was a sci-fi writer I DO like.
Post by Cliff Huprich
Also "Rotating Cylinders and the Possibility of Global Causality Violation".
Yeah, that guy Clifford A Pickover sounds like he writes some
The Alien IQ Test (Basic Books, 1997), The Loom of God (Plenum, 1997),
Black Holes - A Traveler's Guide (Wiley, 1996)
Or maybe you just like him because he has the same first name as you.
--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob
Bob,
I believe that what Cliff has been stating is indeed correct. The problem
is one of scale. For most metals the effect of thermal expansion and
contraction is quite large, an appreciable fraction of the actual
dimensions. For fusible alloys the dimension change is far smaller. So
while they do expand on cooling the expansion is so slight as to be
insignificant with respect to the physical dimensions of the part you are
trying to hold. The slightest surface imperfections will therefore lock the
part firmly in place.

Note that these materials are used to get quite accurate measurements. That
works because the thermal expansion rate is so low that the error caused by
it falls well below the tolerances of the measurements being taken.

Gary H. Lucas
BottleBob
2003-10-29 03:39:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary H. Lucas
Bob,
I believe that what Cliff has been stating is indeed correct.
Gary L.:

A number of statements and implications have been made by Cliff in this
thread. Some correct, some incorrect.
Post by Gary H. Lucas
The problem
is one of scale. For most metals the effect of thermal expansion and
contraction is quite large, an appreciable fraction of the actual
dimensions.
I guess that would depend on what you mean by "appreciable fraction".

The coefficient of expansion for aluminum (a metal that expands more
than most other metals) is about 13 micro-inches per inch of length per
degree. Now I'm sure Cliff can check my math here in case I miss a
decimal place. But if one degree = 13 millionths of an inch increase in
the length of a 1 inch block of aluminum, I see the progression going
something like thus:

1 degree = .000013"
10 degrees = .00013"
100 degrees = .0013"
1000 degrees = .013"

So at 1,000 degrees (almost aluminum's melting point) a 1" block would
expand 1.3% of it's length. Is that an "appreciable fraction"?
Post by Gary H. Lucas
For fusible alloys the dimension change is far smaller.
From the chart on the following site:

http://www.harpellassociates.com/a/a-fusible.htm

Some of the greater expanding fusible alloys listed expand around .005
per inch. That's almost 40% of the expansion of aluminum at 1,000
degrees.
Post by Gary H. Lucas
So
while they do expand on cooling the expansion is so slight as to be
insignificant with respect to the physical dimensions of the part you are
trying to hold.
Well, (if my figures are correct) we've got an expansion of .013" that
you call an "appreciable fraction", and then we have a fusible alloy
expansion upon cooling of .005" that you consider to be insignificant.
Do I have this correct?

If you put a block of metal in your vise, and just snug it up, how many
thousandths MORE will it take to squeeze it as hard as you can tighten
the vise?
Post by Gary H. Lucas
The slightest surface imperfections will therefore lock the
part firmly in place.
Note that these materials are used to get quite accurate measurements. That
works because the thermal expansion rate is so low that the error caused by
it falls well below the tolerances of the measurements being taken.
.005 seems like a readily measurable quantity.
--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob
Cliff Huprich
2003-10-29 05:56:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by BottleBob
Well, (if my figures are correct)
You neglected all phase changes <G>.

How were your popsicles?
--
Cliff
Gary
2003-10-29 08:06:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Well, (if my figures are correct)
You neglected all phase changes <G>.
How were your popsicles?
Were they fuzzy, and lint flavored?
BottleBob
2003-10-29 13:28:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary
Post by Cliff Huprich
How were your popsicles?
Were they fuzzy, and lint flavored?
GaryR:

Did you perhaps have something cogent or constructive you wished to add
to the discussion? Maybe Harvey has an anecdote he would like to share?
--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob
"PrecisionMachinisT"
2003-10-29 08:07:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Well, (if my figures are correct)
You neglected all phase changes <G>.
How were your popsicles?
Brown sugar makes the best popsicles, Cliff.


--

SVL
BottleBob
2003-10-29 13:24:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Well, (if my figures are correct)
You neglected all phase changes <G>.
Cliff:

I also neglected any gravitational effects from black holes or sun spot
activity, since all these things weren't germane or relevant to the
point I was making to Gary H. Lucas. I was concerned with HOW the
materials acted, and with the comparative length changes that aluminum
exhibits upon expanding upon heated AND the length changes some
expanding fusible alloys exhibit upon cooling.
Now the WHY of this situation may certainly have to take phase changes
into consideration. I'm sure you're not suggesting that aluminum goes
through a phase change every time it expands when slightly heated... but
fusible alloys, or parts of them, "may" continue to go through a phase
change *weeks* after they have cooled to room temperature.
Post by Cliff Huprich
How were your popsicles?
*My* popsicles work fine. Using YOUR "anti-popsicle hypothesis"
wherein an expanding media (whether it be ice, Cerrobend, or other
fusible alloys), is not allowed to "squeeze" any objects inserted WITHIN
the media... well, popsicles wouldn't even stay on the stick if you
turned them upside down. But of course they DO remain attached, which
tends to indicate that your "anti-popsicle hypothesis" is flawed at some
basic level.
--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob
Cliff Huprich
2003-10-29 13:48:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
How were your popsicles?
*My* popsicles work fine. Using YOUR "anti-popsicle hypothesis"
wherein an expanding media (whether it be ice, Cerrobend, or other
fusible alloys), is not allowed to "squeeze" any objects inserted WITHIN
the media... well, popsicles wouldn't even stay on the stick if you
turned them upside down. But of course they DO remain attached, which
tends to indicate that your "anti-popsicle hypothesis" is flawed at some
basic level.
Nope.
You have too many combined effects. Net end results: popsicles.
--
Cliff
Cliff Huprich
2003-10-30 00:54:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
You neglected all phase changes <G>.
I also neglected any gravitational effects from black holes or sun spot
activity, since all these things weren't germane or relevant to the
point I was making to Gary H. Lucas. I was concerned with HOW the
materials acted,
Also to be considered (in addition to all else I've mentioned):

Wetting of surfaces.
Expansion/contraction of the captive item.
Expansion/contraction of the "mold".
Surface tension.
--
Cliff
Cliff Huprich
2003-10-29 05:56:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by BottleBob
we've got an expansion of .013" that
you call an "appreciable fraction", and then we have a fusible alloy
expansion upon cooling of .005" that you consider to be insignificant.
Do I have this correct?
Keep it up.
We need an alloy the expands more than it contracts. We can then just
cycle the temp untill the dimensions are correct to fit any theory.

I thought about the other way .... contracts more than it expands ..
but I know how jb feels about black holes ...
--
Cliff
Gary H. Lucas
2003-10-29 14:11:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by BottleBob
Post by Gary H. Lucas
Bob,
I believe that what Cliff has been stating is indeed correct.
A number of statements and implications have been made by Cliff in this
thread. Some correct, some incorrect.
Post by Gary H. Lucas
The problem
is one of scale. For most metals the effect of thermal expansion and
contraction is quite large, an appreciable fraction of the actual
dimensions.
I guess that would depend on what you mean by "appreciable fraction".
The coefficient of expansion for aluminum (a metal that expands more
than most other metals) is about 13 micro-inches per inch of length per
degree. Now I'm sure Cliff can check my math here in case I miss a
decimal place. But if one degree = 13 millionths of an inch increase in
the length of a 1 inch block of aluminum, I see the progression going
1 degree = .000013"
10 degrees = .00013"
100 degrees = .0013"
1000 degrees = .013"
So at 1,000 degrees (almost aluminum's melting point) a 1" block would
expand 1.3% of it's length. Is that an "appreciable fraction"?
Post by Gary H. Lucas
For fusible alloys the dimension change is far smaller.
http://www.harpellassociates.com/a/a-fusible.htm
Some of the greater expanding fusible alloys listed expand around .005
per inch. That's almost 40% of the expansion of aluminum at 1,000
degrees.
Post by Gary H. Lucas
So
while they do expand on cooling the expansion is so slight as to be
insignificant with respect to the physical dimensions of the part you are
trying to hold.
Well, (if my figures are correct) we've got an expansion of .013" that
you call an "appreciable fraction", and then we have a fusible alloy
expansion upon cooling of .005" that you consider to be insignificant.
Do I have this correct?
If you put a block of metal in your vise, and just snug it up, how many
thousandths MORE will it take to squeeze it as hard as you can tighten
the vise?
Post by Gary H. Lucas
The slightest surface imperfections will therefore lock the
part firmly in place.
Note that these materials are used to get quite accurate measurements.
That
Post by BottleBob
Post by Gary H. Lucas
works because the thermal expansion rate is so low that the error caused by
it falls well below the tolerances of the measurements being taken.
.005 seems like a readily measurable quantity.
--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob
Bob, you used the 1000 degree value for fusible alloys that are molten at
around 200 degrees. So divide your 0.005" by five. Also take into account
that the error will be a difference in the expansion rates of the fusible
alloy and the part you are measuring. So all in all the error is going to
be quite low.

Gary H. Lucas
Cliff Huprich
2003-10-29 14:35:07 UTC
Permalink
So all in all the error is going to be quite low.
But the forces can be rather high ....

(BTW, I'm glad someone is checking BB's numbers as I am not .... yet.)
--
Cliff
BottleBob
2003-10-30 00:27:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary H. Lucas
Post by BottleBob
http://www.harpellassociates.com/a/a-fusible.htm
Some of the greater expanding fusible alloys listed expand around .005
per inch. That's almost 40% of the expansion of aluminum at 1,000
degrees.
Well, (if my figures are correct) we've got an expansion of .013" that
you call an "appreciable fraction", and then we have a fusible alloy
expansion upon cooling of .005" that you consider to be insignificant.
Do I have this correct?
Bob, you used the 1000 degree value for fusible alloys that are molten at
around 200 degrees.
Gary H. Lucas:

I'm sorry if I was unclear. The 1,000 degree value was ONLY for
aluminum. It was meant to be a comparison of the amount of maximum
expansion of aluminum before it melts, and some fusible alloys at room
temperature.
Post by Gary H. Lucas
So divide your 0.005" by five.
Again, sorry if I was unclear, the .005 figure is the expansion of some
fusible alloys after casting and at room temperature. Did you go to the
site and look at the charts?
Post by Gary H. Lucas
Also take into account
that the error will be a difference in the expansion rates of the fusible
alloy and the part you are measuring. So all in all the error is going to
be quite low.
I'm not entirely sure what you are referring to when you mention
"error" here.
--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob
Gary H. Lucas
2003-10-30 01:36:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by BottleBob
Post by Gary H. Lucas
Post by BottleBob
http://www.harpellassociates.com/a/a-fusible.htm
Some of the greater expanding fusible alloys listed expand around .005
per inch. That's almost 40% of the expansion of aluminum at 1,000
degrees.
Well, (if my figures are correct) we've got an expansion of .013" that
you call an "appreciable fraction", and then we have a fusible alloy
expansion upon cooling of .005" that you consider to be insignificant.
Do I have this correct?
Bob, you used the 1000 degree value for fusible alloys that are molten at
around 200 degrees.
I'm sorry if I was unclear. The 1,000 degree value was ONLY for
aluminum. It was meant to be a comparison of the amount of maximum
expansion of aluminum before it melts, and some fusible alloys at room
temperature.
Post by Gary H. Lucas
So divide your 0.005" by five.
Again, sorry if I was unclear, the .005 figure is the expansion of some
fusible alloys after casting and at room temperature. Did you go to the
site and look at the charts?
Post by Gary H. Lucas
Also take into account
that the error will be a difference in the expansion rates of the fusible
alloy and the part you are measuring. So all in all the error is going to
be quite low.
I'm not entirely sure what you are referring to when you mention
"error" here.
--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob
Bob,
I didn't look at the charts. I was working from RAM. You now how if you
don't refresh it now and then you lose some bits? I may have lost a few.

Gary H. Lucas
Cliff Huprich
2003-10-30 15:37:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
The question is about changes in the solid as it gets cooler .... does
it expand?
That was *ONE* question, but not the *ONLY* question. Did you even
bother to GO to the site listed above and look at the charts? One chart
shows the expansion of various fusible alloys after casting. The time
frames go from 2 minutes to 21 DAYS! And after 21 days, some fusible
alloys are STILL expanding.
http://www.alchemycastings.com/lead-products/fusible.htm

BB,
I seriously doubt their numbers.
Nothing about temp or rate of change of same is given. Nor about
casting & cooling methods. Might just be residual stress from same
working it's way ..

But certainly a phase change in the solid for some alloys might
seem indicated .... or xtal growth in what *appears* to be a solid.

I also noted numbers that, if plotted on a curve, would look
rather strange. I'd guess they had several people at various times
with various tools ....

As another curiosity for your basket of popsicles .... check up
on azeotropes <G>.
--
Cliff
BottleBob
2003-11-01 14:52:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by BottleBob
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
The question is about changes in the solid as it gets cooler .... does
it expand?
That was *ONE* question, but not the *ONLY* question. Did you even
bother to GO to the site listed above and look at the charts? One chart
shows the expansion of various fusible alloys after casting. The time
frames go from 2 minutes to 21 DAYS! And after 21 days, some fusible
alloys are STILL expanding.
http://www.alchemycastings.com/lead-products/fusible.htm
BB,
I seriously doubt their numbers.
Cliff:

Why? Because their numbers tend to contradict your
"anti-popsicle conjecture"?
Post by BottleBob
Nothing about temp or rate of change of same is given.
Temperature? I would assume the temperature after even one day to be
pretty close to ambient, wouldn't you? <g>
Post by BottleBob
Nor about
casting & cooling methods.
I think a reasonable assumption would be that they poured the liquid
fusible alloy in the mold, or fixture box, and let it air cool.
Post by BottleBob
But certainly a phase change in the solid for some alloys might
seem indicated .... or xtal growth in what *appears* to be a solid.
That sounds reasonable.
Post by BottleBob
I also noted numbers that, if plotted on a curve, would look
rather strange.
Strange? Only if it's your assumption that the expansion or
contraction of ANY metallic alloys have to conform to some arbitrary
"linear" requirement.
Post by BottleBob
I'd guess they had several people at various times
with various tools ....
Not necessarily, check out the following site:

=============================================
http://82.1911encyclopedia.org/F/FU/FUSIBLE_METAL.htm

These fusible metals have the peculiarity of expanding as they cool;
Roses metal, for instance, remains pasty for a considerable range of
temperature below its fusing point, contracts somewhat rapidly from 80
to 55, expands from 55 to 35, and contracts again from 35 to 0.
==============================================
Post by BottleBob
As another curiosity for your basket of popsicles .... check up
on azeotropes <G>.
Azeotropes? Azeotropes are solutions of differing substances that
cannot be separated by distillation. Since I haven't noticed anyone
suggesting trying to "distill" fusible alloys, I don't see the
connection that azeotropes have in the context of this discussion.
--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob
Cliff Huprich
2003-11-02 08:00:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by BottleBob
Post by BottleBob
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
The question is about changes in the solid as it gets cooler .... does
it expand?
That was *ONE* question, but not the *ONLY* question. Did you even
bother to GO to the site listed above and look at the charts? One chart
shows the expansion of various fusible alloys after casting. The time
frames go from 2 minutes to 21 DAYS! And after 21 days, some fusible
alloys are STILL expanding.
http://www.alchemycastings.com/lead-products/fusible.htm
BB,
I seriously doubt their numbers.
Why? Because their numbers tend to contradict your
"anti-popsicle conjecture"?
Because the purported "growth" curve for one reverses direction,
as one example. For another, look at your own posted data showing
microns per inch .... how did they measure it?
Post by BottleBob
Post by BottleBob
Nothing about temp or rate of change of same is given.
Temperature? I would assume the temperature after even one day to be
pretty close to ambient, wouldn't you? <g>
Rates of change during solidification can be critical to the end properties
for many alloys.
Post by BottleBob
Post by BottleBob
Nor about
casting & cooling methods.
I think a reasonable assumption would be that they poured the liquid
fusible alloy in the mold, or fixture box, and let it air cool.
How much cooling how fast by the box? What shape? What thickess of
pour? How hot to begin with? How much control of what?
Too many variables ... we don't know what the effects are.
Post by BottleBob
Post by BottleBob
But certainly a phase change in the solid for some alloys might
seem indicated .... or xtal growth in what *appears* to be a solid.
That sounds reasonable.
Find anything on the mechanism(s)?
Post by BottleBob
Post by BottleBob
I also noted numbers that, if plotted on a curve, would look
rather strange.
Strange? Only if it's your assumption that the expansion or
contraction of ANY metallic alloys have to conform to some arbitrary
"linear" requirement.
You WERE claiming thermal growth effects .....
Post by BottleBob
Post by BottleBob
I'd guess they had several people at various times
with various tools ....
=============================================
http://82.1911encyclopedia.org/F/FU/FUSIBLE_METAL.htm
These fusible metals have the peculiarity of expanding as they cool;
Roses metal, for instance, remains pasty for a considerable range of
temperature below its fusing point,
That "paste" is no doubt the result of phase changes in the various
metals and fractional/differential crystallization.

You keep getting confused by the various possible effects I think.
Post by BottleBob
contracts somewhat rapidly from 80
to 55, expands from 55 to 35, and contracts again from 35 to 0.
==============================================
Post by BottleBob
As another curiosity for your basket of popsicles .... check up
on azeotropes <G>.
Azeotropes? Azeotropes are solutions of differing substances that
cannot be separated by distillation.
And alloys are ?
Post by BottleBob
Since I haven't noticed anyone
suggesting trying to "distill" fusible alloys, I don't see the
connection that azeotropes have in the context of this discussion.
Some azeotropes boil at a lower temp than any of their component
liquids ....
--
Cliff
BottleBob
2003-11-03 00:35:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
BB,
I seriously doubt their numbers.
Why? Because their numbers tend to contradict your
"anti-popsicle conjecture"?
Because the purported "growth" curve for one reverses direction,
as one example.
Cliff:

So? That could simply be explained by the fusible alloy sample
"cooling" from the molten state, THEN undergoing molecular/atomic
rearrangement while solidifying/crystallizing.
Post by Cliff Huprich
For another, look at your own posted data showing
microns per inch .... how did they measure it?
Microns per inch? I didn't notice any "microns per inch" OR
"micro-inch per inch" data at the fusible alloy site that I gave the URL
to. It showed the expansion amounts in ten-thousandths and thousandths
of an inch. Just for clarity's sake, a "micron" is a millionth of a
meter, a micro-inch is a millionth of an inch.

http://www.alchemycastings.com/lead-products/fusible.htm

What I DID do, was take the coefficient of expansion for aluminum (in
micro-inches per inch per degree F) out of the "Machinery's Handbook"
for the purpose of contrasting it with something Gary H. Lucas had to
say.
Perhaps you're spreading yourself a little too thin in your trolling
lately. <g>
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
Nothing about temp or rate of change of same is given.
Temperature? I would assume the temperature after even one day to be
pretty close to ambient, wouldn't you? <g>
Rates of change during solidification can be critical to the end properties
for many alloys.
The expansion per inch amounts were given in table form and the time
given after casting.
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
I think a reasonable assumption would be that they poured the liquid
fusible alloy in the mold, or fixture box, and let it air cool.
How much cooling how fast by the box? What shape? What thickess of
pour? How hot to begin with? How much control of what?
Too many variables ... we don't know what the effects are.
The final "effects" of the expansion, or contraction, of various
fusible alloys were given in table form. The shape of the sample was a
2" X 2" X 10" bar. It seems you didn't give more than just a cursory
glance at the site.
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
But certainly a phase change in the solid for some alloys might
seem indicated .... or xtal growth in what *appears* to be a solid.
That sounds reasonable.
Find anything on the mechanism(s)?
No. I'm not currently looking.
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
I also noted numbers that, if plotted on a curve, would look
rather strange.
Strange? Only if it's your assumption that the expansion or
contraction of ANY metallic alloys have to conform to some arbitrary
"linear" requirement.
You WERE claiming thermal growth effects .....
Not precisely. I claimed from the first that some fusible alloys
expand upon cooling/solidifying. I didn't categorically state that the
phenomena was SOLELY thermally derived. It could very well be, and
probably is, a molecular/atomic structure reorganization
(crystallization), especially if there is still measurable expansion
after 21 DAYS.
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
I'd guess they had several people at various times
with various tools ....
=============================================
http://82.1911encyclopedia.org/F/FU/FUSIBLE_METAL.htm
These fusible metals have the peculiarity of expanding as they cool;
Roses metal, for instance, remains pasty for a considerable range of
temperature below its fusing point, contracts somewhat rapidly from 80
to 55, expands from 55 to 35, and contracts again from 35 to 0.
==============================================
That "paste" is no doubt the result of phase changes in the various
metals and fractional/differential crystallization.
You keep getting confused by the various possible effects I think.
The "effects" of the cooling/solidification of fusible alloys are that
"some" of them expand, and "some" of them contract. That "effect" is
shown in chart form on the site I gave. If you mean the various
possible "causes" of the expansion/contraction... well any statements as
to precise "causes" would be generally speculative in nature, without
further study.
As far as being "confused", well heh, that's just one of your more
transparent ploys/artifices that you like to use to try and disconcert
those you are arguing with. You seldom actually show just HOW, or in
what WAY, those people are confused that you "claim" are confused. If
you DID, your accusation of "confusion" would be a little more credible.
Besides, *I* wasn't the one who tried to support an "anti-popsicle
hypothesis", and say that any alleged expansion of fusible alloys would
"pull-away" from an object inserted within. LOL
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
As another curiosity for your basket of popsicles .... check up
on azeotropes <G>.
Azeotropes? Azeotropes are solutions of differing substances that
cannot be separated by distillation.
And alloys are ?
Alloys are mixtures of two or more different metals. You don't really
believe that all alloys are azeotropes, do you?
--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob
Cliff Huprich
2003-11-03 21:50:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
BB,
I seriously doubt their numbers.
Why? Because their numbers tend to contradict your
"anti-popsicle conjecture"?
Because the purported "growth" curve for one reverses direction,
as one example.
So? That could simply be explained by the fusible alloy sample
"cooling" from the molten state, THEN undergoing molecular/atomic
rearrangement while solidifying/crystallizing.
I thought it was already a solid ..... 21 days as a "partial" liquid huh?
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
For another, look at your own posted data showing
microns per inch .... how did they measure it?
Microns per inch? I didn't notice any "microns per inch" OR
"micro-inch per inch" data at the fusible alloy site that I gave the URL
to. It showed the expansion amounts in ten-thousandths and thousandths
of an inch.
Some looked rather close to zero ... what margin for error in the measurement
with a 0-1" micrometer?
Post by BottleBob
Just for clarity's sake, a "micron" is a millionth of a
meter, a micro-inch is a millionth of an inch.
http://www.alchemycastings.com/lead-products/fusible.htm
Measure it in yards?
Post by BottleBob
What I DID do, was take the coefficient of expansion for aluminum (in
micro-inches per inch per degree F) out of the "Machinery's Handbook"
for the purpose of contrasting it with something Gary H. Lucas had to
say.
Did you convert units to compare?
Post by BottleBob
Perhaps you're spreading yourself a little too thin in your trolling
lately. <g>
Lots of fish this week <G>.
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
Nothing about temp or rate of change of same is given.
Temperature? I would assume the temperature after even one day to be
pretty close to ambient, wouldn't you? <g>
Rates of change during solidification can be critical to the end properties
for many alloys.
The expansion per inch amounts were given in table form and the time
given after casting.
Which says nothing about cooling rates ... and you were talking about
*continued* solidification above .... I wonder if the hardness or tensile goes
up?
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
I think a reasonable assumption would be that they poured the
liquid
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
fusible alloy in the mold, or fixture box, and let it air cool.
How much cooling how fast by the box? What shape? What thickess of
pour? How hot to begin with? How much control of what?
Too many variables ... we don't know what the effects are.
The final "effects" of the expansion, or contraction, of various
fusible alloys were given in table form. The shape of the sample was a
2" X 2" X 10" bar. It seems you didn't give more than just a cursory
glance at the site.
True. Just the gist and all the gist, mam.
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
But certainly a phase change in the solid for some alloys might
seem indicated .... or xtal growth in what *appears* to be a solid.
That sounds reasonable.
Find anything on the mechanism(s)?
No. I'm not currently looking.
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
I also noted numbers that, if plotted on a curve, would look
rather strange.
Strange? Only if it's your assumption that the expansion or
contraction of ANY metallic alloys have to conform to some arbitrary
"linear" requirement.
You WERE claiming thermal growth effects .....
Not precisely. I claimed from the first that some fusible alloys
expand upon cooling/solidifying. I didn't categorically state that the
phenomena was SOLELY thermally derived.
Then it would not be thermal growth/contraction .... recall those circles?
Post by BottleBob
It could very well be, and
probably is, a molecular/atomic structure reorganization
(crystallization), especially if there is still measurable expansion
after 21 DAYS.
Not a well controlled process ...
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
I'd guess they had several people at various times
with various tools ....
=============================================
http://82.1911encyclopedia.org/F/FU/FUSIBLE_METAL.htm
These fusible metals have the peculiarity of expanding as they cool;
Roses metal, for instance, remains pasty for a considerable range of
temperature below its fusing point, contracts somewhat rapidly from 80
to 55, expands from 55 to 35, and contracts again from 35 to 0.
==============================================
That "paste" is no doubt the result of phase changes in the various
metals and fractional/differential crystallization.
You keep getting confused by the various possible effects I think.
The "effects" of the cooling/solidification of fusible alloys are that
"some" of them expand, and "some" of them contract.
Liquids (constrained in XY), if expanding/contracting, should expand/contract
UP.
Post by BottleBob
That "effect" is
shown in chart form on the site I gave.
Did they measure UP?
Post by BottleBob
If you mean the various
possible "causes" of the expansion/contraction... well any statements as
to precise "causes" would be generally speculative in nature, without
further study.
I thought someone said it was thermal .....
Post by BottleBob
As far as being "confused", well heh, that's just one of your more
transparent ploys/artifices that you like to use to try and disconcert
those you are arguing with. You seldom actually show just HOW, or in
what WAY, those people are confused that you "claim" are confused.
Tom Downey School of Diplomacy.
Post by BottleBob
If you DID, your accusation of "confusion" would be a little more credible.
You said yourself (above) that more research was needed <G>.
Post by BottleBob
Besides, *I* wasn't the one who tried to support an "anti-popsicle
hypothesis", and say that any alleged expansion of fusible alloys would
"pull-away" from an object inserted within. LOL
I don't think you understood the point at all <sigh>.

Produce a precision hole in the stuff. What happens to it's diameter if
the material is warmed or cooled slightly?
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
As another curiosity for your basket of popsicles .... check up
on azeotropes <G>.
Azeotropes? Azeotropes are solutions of differing substances that
cannot be separated by distillation.
And alloys are ?
Alloys are mixtures of two or more different metals.
Is Carbon a metal?
Azeotropes are mixtures of two or more chemicals ....
Post by BottleBob
You don't really believe that all alloys are azeotropes, do you?
It's for compare & contrast or show & tell.
--
Cliff
Glen
2003-10-25 16:09:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by MM
Besides the low melting temp, thae other nice thing is that it expands
when
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by MM
it cools.
So the part would loosen?
If a part was put in a "box" and then surrounded with Cerrobend/Wood's
metal or whatever, and the material expanded when it cooled, why do you
think the part would loosen? It would be "squeezed" on all four sides,
would it not?
It's (what is claimed) the exact reverse of a thermal shrink-fit
tool holder. They expand when heated ... and shrink when cooled ...
If the reverse is true, as claimed, they would expand when cooled,
right? What would happen to the ID holding the tool/part?
The subject wasn't shrink fit tool holders, or the thermal expansion of
steel, but using fusible alloys to hold parts to be machined.
==========================================
http://www.alchemycastings.com/lead-products/fusible.htm
Because Fusible Alloys expand and push into mould detail when they
solidify, they are excellent for duplication and reproduction processes.
This characteristic of expansion and/or non-shrinkage, combined with low
melting temperature and ease of handling, are the major reasons for
their extensive use.
Forcing Cliff to show comprehension of a point is like trying to grab
a peeled grape, it just pops out some new direction every time you
grab at it.
BottleBob
2003-10-25 16:28:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Glen
Post by BottleBob
The subject wasn't shrink fit tool holders, or the thermal expansion of
steel, but using fusible alloys to hold parts to be machined.
Forcing Cliff to show comprehension of a point is like trying to grab
a peeled grape, it just pops out some new direction every time you
grab at it.
Glen:

LOL Yeah, I'll have to agree with you there, he's sure a slick tongued
devil. BUT, even making the ATTEMPT is mentally stimulating and
entertaining, even IF a final resolution is unlikely to be forthcoming.
<g>
--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob
Cliff Huprich
2003-10-25 22:13:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by BottleBob
Post by Glen
Forcing Cliff to show comprehension of a point is like trying to grab
a peeled grape, it just pops out some new direction every time you
grab at it.
LOL Yeah, I'll have to agree with you there, he's sure a slick tongued
devil. BUT, even making the ATTEMPT is mentally stimulating and
entertaining, even IF a final resolution is unlikely to be forthcoming.
<g>
Perhaps it's just outside that circle <G>.
--
Cliff
BottleBob
2003-10-26 02:39:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Post by Glen
Forcing Cliff to show comprehension of a point is like trying to grab
a peeled grape, it just pops out some new direction every time you
grab at it.
LOL Yeah, I'll have to agree with you there, he's sure a slick tongued
devil. BUT, even making the ATTEMPT is mentally stimulating and
entertaining, even IF a final resolution is unlikely to be forthcoming.
<g>
Perhaps it's just outside that circle <G>.
Cliff:

How "sufficiently large would a value of zero" have to be to enable you
to create this circle?
--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob
Cliff Huprich
2003-10-26 06:26:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Post by Glen
Forcing Cliff to show comprehension of a point is like trying to grab
a peeled grape, it just pops out some new direction every time you
grab at it.
LOL Yeah, I'll have to agree with you there, he's sure a slick tongued
devil. BUT, even making the ATTEMPT is mentally stimulating and
entertaining, even IF a final resolution is unlikely to be forthcoming.
<g>
Perhaps it's just outside that circle <G>.
How "sufficiently large would a value of zero" have to be to enable you
to create this circle?
How thick is Glen's circle?
Can he, by using only 3 bible verses, supply foorp? If not, what is
the minimum number of verses required?
--
Cliff
Cliff Huprich
2003-10-25 22:10:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Glen
Forcing Cliff to show comprehension of a point is like trying to grab
a peeled grape, it just pops out some new direction every time you
grab at it.
Glen,
Using right-winger conservative "logic" and bible verses explain exactly
why this is or is not the case:

[
BUT, assuming it's true in this case .... and it expands .... how could it
expand on both the ID & OD at the same time? Think of a solid chunk
with a circle drawn on it. The material expands. YOU are saying the ID
of the circle would get larger while it's OD gets smaller .....
]

"What progress we are making. In the Middle Ages they would have burned me.
Now they are content with burning my books."

Sigmund Freud
--Letter to Ernest Jones
--
Cliff
Brewertr
2003-10-26 00:42:23 UTC
Permalink
Cliff,

I believe the point BB is posing is the mass of the alloy expands as it cools.
If restricted it expands in the direction of least resistance.

Interesting……………

Rather than a circle maybe change the shape to a donut. If poured in a donut
shape the mass expands on all sides as it cools. As the alloy cools and
expands on ALL sides the ID gets smaller and the OD gets larger. The center of
the mass for a donut is neither the ID or OD.

If this proves to be true what kind of holding forces can be generated in some
applications?

Tom
Subject: Re: Anyone using Fusible Alloys?
Date: 10/25/2003 3:10 PM Pacific Standard Time
Post by Glen
Forcing Cliff to show comprehension of a point is like trying to grab
a peeled grape, it just pops out some new direction every time you
grab at it.
Glen,
Using right-winger conservative "logic" and bible verses explain exactly
[
BUT, assuming it's true in this case .... and it expands .... how could it
expand on both the ID & OD at the same time? Think of a solid chunk
with a circle drawn on it. The material expands. YOU are saying the ID
of the circle would get larger while it's OD gets smaller .....
]
"What progress we are making. In the Middle Ages they would have burned me.
Now they are content with burning my books."
Sigmund Freud
--Letter to Ernest Jones
--
Cliff
Cliff Huprich
2003-10-26 10:14:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by brewertr
Cliff,
I believe the point BB is posing is the mass of the alloy expands as it cools.
If restricted it expands in the direction of least resistance.
Tom,

It can only do that during the phase change (from liquid to solid) I
think. See the raised bit in the center of an ice cube.
Once it's a solid it's a solid and such properties have to be uniform in all
directions unless there's another phase change ...

As things get warmer their molecular/atomic motion increases .. so solids
and liquids and gasses tend to expand <g>.
Post by brewertr
Interesting……………
Rather than a circle maybe change the shape to a donut. If poured in a donut
shape
Two circles? LOL ...
Post by brewertr
the mass expands on all sides as it cools. As the alloy cools and
expands on ALL sides the ID gets smaller and the OD gets larger.
Not for uniform materials. See that circle again ..
Post by brewertr
The center of the mass for a donut is neither the ID or OD.
But uniform thermal expansion/contraction is not related to centers of mass
or centers of anything else.

Think an infinite sheet ... draw any types of closed curves you wish on it,
as many as you want.
Expand or contract the sheet ... it's the same no matter the curves you
drew ...
Post by brewertr
If this proves to be true what kind of holding forces can be generated in
some applications?
It's not true so don't worry .. the ID will remain smaller than the OD
(unless
Glen gets ahold of it).

How long will BB's confusion last? All weekend? LOL .... hope I don't get
busy or bored ...
--
Cliff
Brewertr
2003-10-27 02:22:31 UTC
Permalink
Cliff,
Date: 10/26/2003 2:14 AM Pacific Standard Time
snip..........
It can only do that during the phase change (from liquid to solid) I
think. See the raised bit in the center of an ice cube.
Once it's a solid it's a solid and such properties have to be uniform in all
directions unless there's another phase change ...
As things get warmer their molecular/atomic motion increases .. so solids
and liquids and gasses tend to expand <g>.
It seems we are thinking along the same lines but coming to opposite
conclusions on the effect it has when used in supporting or holding irregular
shapes. In your example Fusible Alloys are more like the ice cube it expands
when cooling.

snip.....
But uniform thermal expansion/contraction is not related to centers of mass
or centers of anything else.
Think an infinite sheet ... draw any types of closed curves you wish on it,
as many as you want.
Expand or contract the sheet ... it's the same no matter the curves you
drew ...
A sheet of paper does not have the same properties as a block of metal. A sheet
of paper cannot tell you what happens when the metal expands/contracts during
temperature changes. Theory is just that until it can be reproduced with a
practical experiment.

snip........
How long will BB's confusion last? All weekend? LOL .... hope I don't get
busy or bored ...
Cliff
BB's experiment seems to be a challenge for you to prove your point with a
practical experiment.

Sincerely,
Tom
Cliff Huprich
2003-10-27 10:21:56 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@mb-m16.aol.com>, ***@aol.com
(Brewertr) writes:

Tom,
I read & answer Email long before I read any posts, usually. It might be
important <G>.
Sooner or later I usually get to all the new posts ....
Post by brewertr
Cliff,
Date: 10/26/2003 2:14 AM Pacific Standard Time
snip..........
It can only do that during the phase change (from liquid to solid) I
think. See the raised bit in the center of an ice cube.
Once it's a solid it's a solid and such properties have to be uniform in
all directions unless there's another phase change ...
As things get warmer their molecular/atomic motion increases .. so solids
and liquids and gasses tend to expand <g>.
It seems we are thinking along the same lines but coming to opposite
conclusions on the effect it has when used in supporting or holding irregular
shapes.
Consider the effect first with a simple shape. Fewer variables to confuse
the audience.
Post by brewertr
In your example Fusible Alloys are more like the ice cube it expands
when cooling.
Not really ..... there are many other effects that influence ice cubes. We
must first consider the effects on geometry of simple expansion/contraction
alone.
Post by brewertr
snip.....
But uniform thermal expansion/contraction is not related to centers of
mass or centers of anything else.
Think an infinite sheet ... draw any types of closed curves you wish on
it, as many as you want.
Expand or contract the sheet ... it's the same no matter the curves you
drew ...
A sheet of paper does not have the same properties as a block of metal.
I don't think I mentioned paper ... or any specific material. Just a simple
geometric issue. Kept it to a simple 2D plane instead of a 3D bulk solid. Cut
the bulk solid with any plane at any angle and it comes out the same though.
Post by brewertr
A sheet of paper cannot tell you what happens when the metal
expands/contracts during temperature changes.
The concept works well <G>.
Post by brewertr
Theory is just that until it
can be reproduced with a practical experiment.
The theory of thermal expansion/contraction is well known & tested <G>.
Post by brewertr
snip........
How long will BB's confusion last? All weekend? LOL .... hope I don't get
busy or bored ...
BB's experiment seems to be a challenge for you to prove your point with a
practical experiment.
Nope. He's introduced many unknown edge effects and process variables.
BEFORE grasping the subject <g>.

Should we discuss directional solidification too? Used for making such things
as single crystal Nickel alloy jet turbine blades ... and semiconductors and
...
--
Cliff
Brewertr
2003-10-27 18:00:50 UTC
Permalink
snip...Tom
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by Brewertr
BB's experiment seems to be a challenge for you to prove your point with a
practical experiment.
snip....Cliff
Post by Cliff Huprich
Nope. He's introduced many unknown edge effects and process variables.
BEFORE grasping the subject <g>.
Cliff,

I snipped what is only misdirection and clouds the issue. Your theory is in
direct contradiction to my experience, I want you to prove me wrong with a
practical and measurable experiment.

My original post gave an example of how the Fusible Alloy is used. We are not
warming up the material we are MELTING it and pouring it into a "mold" for
support. As the Fusible Alloy cools it expands into the shape it is poured the
opposite of AZ Alloy 12 or other alloys that contract when cooling.

Example #1 Aluminum-Zinc (contracts when cooling)

If I pour an aluminum-Zinc mixture into a round three dimensional mold (open at
the top) it will shrink on the OD and pull down from the top as it cools.

If I pour this same Aluminum-Zinc mixture into a mold in the shape of a donut
(open at the top) it will shrink on all sides as it cools the ID will be larger
and the OD smaller and pull down from the top as it cools.

Example #2 Fusible Alloys (expands when cooling)

If I pour a Fusible Alloy into the same molds the opposite happens

When we pour into the round mold what happened to BB;s Ice Cube will happen, as
the fusible alloy metal cools it expands in the only direction it can, UP.
When we pour the molten fusible alloy into the donut shaped mold again it will
do the same thing, when it expands as it cools it will move up because that is
the only direction it can grow.
________________________

Warming up a piece of material for shrink fit is not the same as melting and
pouring it.

Sincerely,
Tom
Cliff Huprich
2003-10-28 00:22:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brewertr
snip...Tom
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by Brewertr
BB's experiment seems to be a challenge for you to prove your point with a
practical experiment.
snip....Cliff
Post by Cliff Huprich
Nope. He's introduced many unknown edge effects and process variables.
BEFORE grasping the subject <g>.
Cliff,
I snipped what is only misdirection and clouds the issue. Your theory is in
direct contradiction to my experience, I want you to prove me wrong with a
practical and measurable experiment.
Tom,
You have directional solidification and phase changes in all of your
examples. In addition, your molds are adding constraints and who knows
which way the stresses built up during processing ......

Now take an unstressed solid at just below the melting point and slowly cool
it ...

<G>.
--
Cliff
Brewertr
2003-10-28 00:47:21 UTC
Permalink
Date: 10/27/2003 4:22 PM Pacific Standard Time
snip..........
Post by brewertr
Cliff,
snip.........
Tom,
You have directional solidification and phase changes in all of your
examples.
Exactly, this is what the original post was about.
In addition, your molds are adding constraints and who knows
which way the stresses built up during processing ......
I do their my molds.
Now take an unstressed solid at just below the melting point and slowly cool
it ...
...........LOL.........I understand your point, it has nothing to do with this
application.

Tom
Cliff Huprich
2003-10-28 02:37:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brewertr
...........LOL.........I understand your point, it has nothing to do with this
application.
As long as the expansion or contraction is small I think you can use it
(and the processing conditions and constraints) to fixture a part externally.
With that in mind the question of expansion or contraction effects does
not matter .... you (and BB) could claim either and find specific cases ...

BTW, We used Zinc at P&W to hold (externally) turbine blades. (I think I
mentioned that.) We shuttled the Zinc blocks for the robots & 12 axes
creep-freed
grinders. Zinc shrinks as it cools ...

I'm *trying* to get BB to see that circle though. This then becomes a good
example of line or surface integrals of conserved fields crossing a curve or
surface ..
what goes in must come out someplace else ..... or the conservation laws would
not work <G>.
My ongoing quest to "educate" BB (and anyone else interested) into a little
real basic math & physics .... <chuckle>.

Cliff
Brewertr
2003-10-28 15:38:19 UTC
Permalink
Date: 10/27/2003 6:37 PM Pacific Standard Time
sip........
As long as the expansion or contraction is small I think you can use it
(and the processing conditions and constraints) to fixture a part externally.
With that in mind the question of expansion or contraction effects does
not matter .... you (and BB) could claim either and find specific cases ...
It does work in this case, works well.
BTW, We used Zinc at P&W to hold (externally) turbine blades. (I think I
mentioned that.) We shuttled the Zinc blocks for the robots & 12 axes
creep-freed
grinders. Zinc shrinks as it cools ...
I like Zinc it's relitively cheep, the down side is the melting point & amount
of shrinkage as it cools.

Tom
Cliff Huprich
2003-10-28 23:27:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cliff Huprich
Zinc shrinks as it cools ...
I like Zinc it's relitively cheep, the down side is the melting point &
amount of shrinkage as it cools.
So, as it shrinks instead of expands, those parts should just drop free,
right <G>.

But how to get them in in the first place *before* it shrinks .... Calling
BottleBob ....
--
Cliff
Brewertr
2003-10-29 02:01:54 UTC
Permalink
Date: 10/28/2003 3:27 PM Pacific Standard Time
snip.........

Cliff,
So, as it shrinks instead of expands, those parts should just drop free,
right <G>.
Yes and No

There is no simple answer to this because there are so many variables to work
with. It Depends upon the application and the shape of the part and/or "mold".

Most applications where I use Aluminum-Zinc, making soft jaws for lathes,
shrinkage is not an issue. And as the AZ cooled, usually rapid cooling, I was
able to have it just drop free of the mold. I wanted it to just drop out
because I machined the AZ after it was poured and cooled. Once the AZ was
machined and I wanted to split it to make 2 Jaws I had to separate the AZ from
the forging or casting.

In applications where I used AZ as the preferred material where shrinkage was
an issue I used Heating, Pouring and Cooling methods that reduced the shrinkage
to acceptable levels. In this application the part would not just drop free.

Tom
Cliff Huprich
2003-10-29 05:56:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brewertr
Date: 10/28/2003 3:27 PM Pacific Standard Time
snip.........
Cliff,
So, as it shrinks instead of expands, those parts should just drop free,
right <G>.
Yes and No
I was speaking of the "captive" parts (think a rod) encapsulated in the
block when it cooled, not the block in it's own mold.

But how to get them in in the first place *before* it shrinks .... Calling
BottleBob ....

Now, based on this approach, we know that all molded parts will
self-eject on the floor at high velosity as the external surfaces will
shrink so fast from the tool that the inside surfaces will pass right
thru them on their own phobic way from the cores (and it matters
not if the stuff expands or contracts when hot or cold).
--
Cliff
"PrecisionMachinisT"
2003-10-26 04:48:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Glen
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by MM
Besides the low melting temp, thae other nice thing is that it expands
when
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by MM
it cools.
So the part would loosen?
If a part was put in a "box" and then surrounded with Cerrobend/Wood's
metal or whatever, and the material expanded when it cooled, why do you
think the part would loosen? It would be "squeezed" on all four sides,
would it not?
It's (what is claimed) the exact reverse of a thermal shrink-fit
tool holder. They expand when heated ... and shrink when cooled ...
If the reverse is true, as claimed, they would expand when cooled,
right? What would happen to the ID holding the tool/part?
The subject wasn't shrink fit tool holders, or the thermal expansion of
steel, but using fusible alloys to hold parts to be machined.
==========================================
http://www.alchemycastings.com/lead-products/fusible.htm
Because Fusible Alloys expand and push into mould detail when they
solidify, they are excellent for duplication and reproduction processes.
This characteristic of expansion and/or non-shrinkage, combined with low
melting temperature and ease of handling, are the major reasons for
their extensive use.
Forcing Cliff to show comprehension of a point is like trying to grab
a peeled grape, it just pops out some new direction every time you
grab at it.
Funny, *Ive* never had that problem.

At all.

Very clear and concise.

--

SVL
Ed Huntress
2003-10-26 04:56:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by BottleBob
Because Fusible Alloys expand and push into mould detail when they
solidify, they are excellent for duplication and reproduction processes.
This characteristic of expansion and/or non-shrinkage, combined with low
melting temperature and ease of handling, are the major reasons for
their extensive use.
While you're on this subject, I have a suggestion. Cerrobend and Cerrosafe
look pretty much the same after you've melted them and re-cast them back
into a lump. Since they have different properties, and the melting temps and
so on are cast onto the top of the original ingots, it's a good idea to copy
them and re-cast them into a mold that will restore the cast-in name and
temperatures.

I did this by making a one-side plaster mold of the original ingots (I have
about five of them, in different temperature ranges). Then, after I use one,
I melt it and cast it back into its original plaster mold.

'Saves wondering which one you have, and it's fun.

Ed Huntress
jon banquer
2003-10-26 04:59:31 UTC
Permalink
Glen,
Post by Glen
Forcing Cliff to show comprehension of a point is like trying to grab
a peeled grape, it just pops out some new direction every time you
grab at it.
Skip the peeled and revealed sour grapes and enjoy a glass of wine while
downing the turkey.

;>)

jon
Post by Glen
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by BottleBob
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by MM
Besides the low melting temp, thae other nice thing is that it expands
when
Post by Cliff Huprich
Post by MM
it cools.
So the part would loosen?
If a part was put in a "box" and then surrounded with Cerrobend/Wood's
metal or whatever, and the material expanded when it cooled, why do you
think the part would loosen? It would be "squeezed" on all four sides,
would it not?
It's (what is claimed) the exact reverse of a thermal shrink-fit
tool holder. They expand when heated ... and shrink when cooled ...
If the reverse is true, as claimed, they would expand when cooled,
right? What would happen to the ID holding the tool/part?
The subject wasn't shrink fit tool holders, or the thermal expansion of
steel, but using fusible alloys to hold parts to be machined.
==========================================
http://www.alchemycastings.com/lead-products/fusible.htm
Because Fusible Alloys expand and push into mould detail when they
solidify, they are excellent for duplication and reproduction processes.
This characteristic of expansion and/or non-shrinkage, combined with low
melting temperature and ease of handling, are the major reasons for
their extensive use.
Forcing Cliff to show comprehension of a point is like trying to grab
a peeled grape, it just pops out some new direction every time you
grab at it.
n***@gmail.com
2013-10-17 12:18:37 UTC
Permalink
I have used a fusible alloy by the name Field's alloy to bend a silver tube. It worked out very well but led to residues or stains post bending of the silver tube. Traces of alloy is sticking to the inner layer of the pipe which is not at all recommended for our application.
I dipped the entire pipe in hot & boiling water multiple times but the alloy seems to bond well with silver metal. I even used acids to dissolve the alloy, but the effort went in vain as the acid couldn't corrode the alloy.
Do anybody have a similar experience? Or do anybody here knows about a method to remove or corrode fusible alloys?

Nabin

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