How to tell if its time to replace a guy?

Discussion:

(too old to reply)

vinny

2014-11-09 10:59:24 UTC

My latest endevour is to fix an electrode milling area. 2 makino's and a
bostomatic. 1 man days, 1 man nights.
8 positions in one machine, 4 in the other 4th axis etc...
No programming, and very limited inspection.
I fixed everything using ideas from lean machining. I automated the laser
pickup, the loading of programs, etc...
I got cutters that dont wear, holders that have .0001 tir or better.
I brought the machines and all the pallets to their original glory,
everything is .0002 or better all ways.
Moved the furniture.
I even tweaked the process giving us programs, and tweaked the cmm
inspection process by forcing them to learn how to offline program.
The area is as clean as any hospital.
The system rocks.
Everything was running awesome, the inspection reports are like looking over
a sea of green. Attitudes are positive, people are friggen happy.

So I figure it's time to start wandering off, let the system run itself.
Like a fusion reactor!

I came in saturday after a lean class, and wholly fuck, its a damn
klusterfuck!
What they were doing before was setup and run a first electrode, put it in
cmm...THEN setup another...put it in cmm, possible a third...put it in cmm.
Sharing tools, etc...
Horrific klusterfuk 24/7!
I stopped all that!
1 fucking job at a time. They were sticking the tools out to reach the tall
electrode, then running those same cutters on short electrodes, all
confusing, tool wear, ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!
Once I stopped that...all smoothed out. we are now 2 weeks ahead of the edm
guys, as opposed to 1 week behind.
but...
I look saturday to see right in the middle of a large run of 50 electrodes
going great, another job was setup. And it turned into a klusterfuk.
The night guys note says "why the hell did we stop running that job, it took
me 4 hours chasing numbers to get them rolling again".

wtf?
1 fucking day, and it reverts back to shit!
Im so pissed! Why even fucking bother.

Here's the deal, im the only thing keeping him employed there. They want him
gone.
Wtf should I do?
I'd like to just choke him for about 40 seconds till he turns red, but he's
half my size, so I cant go the violence route...
If I complain to the boss...he is gone that second...fired!
What Im thinking is leaving a note on the one machine that says "vinny is
running this", and run it for a week. And right next to me will be
klusterfuk central.
Then, he can sink or swim.
Create some contrast.

or fire him. Shit, I could move an apprentice over and at least not get
snickers and eyes rolled at me by some semi skilled operator "from up
north".

Yea! I told you northerners to stay up there! Are you guys deaf?

F. George McDuffee

2014-11-09 12:28:31 UTC

Permalink

On Sun, 9 Nov 2014 05:59:24 -0500, "vinny" <***@rock.com>
wrote:

<snip>

Post by vinny
So I figure it's time to start wandering off, let the system run itself.
Like a fusion reactor!
I came in saturday after a lean class, and wholly fuck, its a damn
klusterfuck!

</snip>

Some people will never be a machinist (or operator). This
doesn't mean they are a bad person, just that they are in
the wrong line of work.

Some people have the basic skills and talent but don't know
any better.

Some people know better but don't care.

Some people enjoy creating chaos around them.

The trick is to identify which you have, as the remedial
action (from the point of the company) is different in each
case.

If you are not doing so, it will be critical to keep a log
of "problems" so that *SPECIFIC* incidents can be cited and
addressed.

When you have a list of 5 or 10 *SPECIFIC* incidents, it may
then be time to set down with the owner/super and problem
employee, and have a discussion a frank discussion citing
specific acts/omissions, with a written "improvement plan,"
which may well include additional technical instruction and
review of "how we do things in this shop (and why)." The
other side of this is the detail of instruction and training
the "problem" employee has been given, and the
existance/amount of detail of the "operation sheets" that he
is [should be] working off of. ==>You can't expect good
results if the instructions are vague or ambiguous.<==
[Do you have a written general shop SOP detailing
housekeeping, etc.?]

for some possible remedial training [if this is where the
problem is]
http://tinyurl.com/p9rb3ql
http://tinyurl.com/qamd2vz
http://tinyurl.com/q72u72g
http://tinyurl.com/nar6798
http://tinyurl.com/mgk64j3

for EDM background
http://tinyurl.com/ohwa6yw
http://tinyurl.com/oucmmcx
http://tinyurl.com/nv4zoly

operation sheets
http://tinyurl.com/n6njxjw

your edm machine manufacturer may have instructional
material/classes, for example
http://tinyurl.com/paqbu3h
http://tinyurl.com/ou3hsjy

It is expensive to replace an employee, and you can't be
sure the new one is any better than the old one. Remedial
training [if this is where the problem lies] is almost
always cheaper.

--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"

vinny

2014-11-10 11:01:47 UTC

Permalink

Post by F. George McDuffee
If you are not doing so, it will be critical to keep a log
of "problems" so that *SPECIFIC* incidents can be cited and
addressed.
When you have a list of 5 or 10 *SPECIFIC* incidents, it may
then be time to set down with the owner/super and problem
employee, and have a discussion a frank discussion citing
specific acts/omissions, with a written "improvement plan,"
which may well include additional technical instruction and
review of "how we do things in this shop (and why)." The
other side of this is the detail of instruction and training
the "problem" employee has been given, and the
existance/amount of detail of the "operation sheets" that he
is [should be] working off of. ==>You can't expect good
results if the instructions are vague or ambiguous.<==
[Do you have a written general shop SOP detailing
housekeeping, etc.?]

yep, thats a good idea.if you dont write it down, then your just picking on
someone picking stuff out of your head.
I should of started a list last week.

As far as teaching him, he is almost 50, and we are talking milling.
Not to be a downer, but to expect someone that age to suddenly change the
core way they work is silly.
I wouldnt.

No matter what is achieved, he reverts back a day or 2 later.
And I keep hearing 20 years this, 20 years that. Problem is at that age it
should be 30 years experience, wtf happened to 10 years?

I expected this to a certain degree, what if they had some guy from an
edm/wire dept come over to milling to fix your job.
I sure as frig wouldnt be bragging about how long ive been doing it.
I'd prolly quit.

I went thru one machine totally, maint, tweak, automation, etc... then I
wrote a list of 10 things to do every morning, like fill spindle oil, clean
spindle, etc...
The job has gotten so easy a caveman could do it.

But for some reason, people like stress, mess, and dont value the pride you
get from being kickass.
So it reverts back.
The best part is I will not participate!
So this guy turns the simplicity of it all into a stressed out klusterfuk,
people all over pissed at each other, everyone blaming everyone else, and im
sitting in the next mill all quiet, spanking out parts. The contrast is
there.
If he cant see it, cya. I fix processes, not people. I have NO CLUE what to
do with people.

We all need jobs, but to get 20-22hr to run a mill thats processed so far
down an infant could do it, and fail at it consistantly is bullshit. Nobody
deserves a job so much they can fail and not worry about it.
I see people cutting lawns for 10 bux an hour with more skill and pride in
their work.

Maybe the problem is the people doing the hiring are low on the tech side. A
few simple questions could weed out 99% of the rifraf.
Example: are you from up north lol

pyotr filipivich

2014-11-10 13:31:14 UTC

Permalink

Post by vinny
We all need jobs, but to get 20-22hr to run a mill thats processed so far
down an infant could do it, and fail at it consistantly is bullshit. Nobody
deserves a job so much they can fail and not worry about it.
I see people cutting lawns for 10 bux an hour with more skill and pride in
their work.
Maybe the problem is the people doing the hiring are low on the tech side. A
few simple questions could weed out 99% of the rifraf.

Sounds like they are hiring "ambitious" people, go getter, self
starters, enthusiastic people who give 110.1%!
When what are needed are lazy folks who want to get this out of
here with the least amount of "work", and recognize that you can't
make scrap fast enough to show a profit, and until good product goes
out the door, paychecks don't come in. Etc, etc.
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

F. George McDuffee

2014-11-10 15:07:27 UTC

Permalink

Post by vinny

Whether 20 or 30 years, there is a difference between having
20 years experience and one year of experience 20 times.

N. B. ==>A word of caution -- if he is in his 50s be wary of
age discrimination claims.<==

Post by vinny
I expected this to a certain degree, what if they had some guy from an
edm/wire dept come over to milling to fix your job.
I sure as frig wouldnt be bragging about how long ive been doing it.
I'd prolly quit.
I went thru one machine totally, maint, tweak, automation, etc... then I
wrote a list of 10 things to do every morning, like fill spindle oil, clean
spindle, etc...
The job has gotten so easy a caveman could do it.

That's why they have check lists for pilots (and cave men
still can't/won't do it). Do you have a similar work area
check list, and is time provided for housekeeping?

FWIW this is the type of process documentation [which must
be expanded] for ISO 9000 certification
http://tinyurl.com/26kujt which is becoming increasingly
required for export sales. While your company may not want
to go for ISO9000 certification, the requirements and
documentation can be helpful for standardizing your
operation and a point of ready reference.
http://tinyurl.com/cb49cph
http://tinyurl.com/259eka9
http://tinyurl.com/pssuhwq

Post by vinny
But for some reason, people like stress, mess, and dont value the pride you
get from being kickass.

Indeed they do, and this frequently leads to problems for
the organization. One of the worst manifestations is the
person who creates problems so he can be a hero when he
solves the problem they created. Management is frequently
to blame for this if they reward problem solving and ignore
problem prevention. Like the old catch phrase has it --
Excitement has no place on the *PROFITABLE* shop floor --
you want excitement? Join the volleyball team.

I just had a webinar announcement on managing "negativity"
and "problem employees" hit my inbox which may be of
interest.

http://tinyurl.com/pow4zzy
Tuesday, November 18, 2014 @ 1:00pm Eastern, Length 70
Minutes
"Are you confronted with employees who complain, criticize,
or try to stir up trouble? Do you often feel frustrated and
helpless? You may assume that there is no way to change
these personality problems, so you just do your best to
contain the damage. However, tolerating such harmful
behaviors is definitely NOT the smartest strategy.

Chronic negativity frequently starts with only one or two
employees, but it can quickly infect an entire department.
When this happens, the inevitable result is reduced
productivity, damaged morale, and eventually increased
turnover, so wise managers try to nip negativity in the
bud."

Post by vinny
So it reverts back.
The best part is I will not participate!
So this guy turns the simplicity of it all into a stressed out klusterfuk,
people all over pissed at each other, everyone blaming everyone else, and im
sitting in the next mill all quiet, spanking out parts. The contrast is
there.
If he cant see it, cya. I fix processes, not people. I have NO CLUE what to
do with people.
We all need jobs, but to get 20-22hr to run a mill thats processed so far
down an infant could do it, and fail at it consistantly is bullshit. Nobody
deserves a job so much they can fail and not worry about it.
I see people cutting lawns for 10 bux an hour with more skill and pride in
their work.

He just may have been in the wrong line of work for the last
20/30 years. Not all of us are lucky enough to get into the
line of work for which we are [best] suited.

Post by vinny
Maybe the problem is the people doing the hiring are low on the tech side. A
few simple questions could weed out 99% of the rifraf.
Example: are you from up north lol

Indeed screening/apptitude tests should be used, and many of
these are available. In many cases your state employment
service has an entire battery of these tests and will
administer these for free, and can provide pre-screened job
candidates.

There is no point in putting someone who is a "people
person" in a position where there are no people. In the
previous post I had some URLs (with some more below). In
general these tests can't tell who will be successful in a
given position, but these can help avoid trying to pound a
square peg in a round hole, when they would be much happier
and more productive in a sales position.
http://tinyurl.com/c2oh74o
http://tinyurl.com/qe3m3qs
http://tinyurl.com/o6ybysj

A word of caution -- these are pencil and paper tests. You
should also include a basic performance test such as asking
the candidate to mike several random gage pins as close as
they can, while providing them with several measuring
instruments such as a vernier caliper, cheap mike, good mike
in case with check standard, etc. and carefully observing
what they use and how they treat the tools.

If possible try to get a look at their tool box. If they
don't have one, or its beat to crap and filled with hammers
and vice grips it tells you one thing, but if its filled
with quality tools in good condition, albeit well-worn, with
some they made themselves, it tells you something else.

I am sure there are many other posters in this thread with
the same problems, some shop owners, and some who just care,
so let us know how things work out. Good Luck!

--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"

vinny

2014-11-11 10:38:49 UTC

Permalink

Post by F. George McDuffee

Post by vinny

Whether 20 or 30 years, there is a difference between having
20 years experience and one year of experience 20 times.
N. B. ==>A word of caution -- if he is in his 50s be wary of
age discrimination claims.<==

Nothing to worry about there, im older than him.
hes in his mid 40's. too old to change unfortunitely.

Post by F. George McDuffee

That's why they have check lists for pilots (and cave men
still can't/won't do it). Do you have a similar work area
check list, and is time provided for housekeeping?

Well...All Ive done so far is: on the first machine I finished, I put a
paper on the table under plastic that has a list of things to do in the
morning, and at the end of the day.
The morning is typically maint, and the end of the day is a cleaning list.
It's very short, but if followed all will be good.

Post by F. George McDuffee
FWIW this is the type of process documentation [which must
be expanded] for ISO 9000 certification
http://tinyurl.com/26kujt which is becoming increasingly
required for export sales. While your company may not want
to go for ISO9000 certification, the requirements and
documentation can be helpful for standardizing your
operation and a point of ready reference.
http://tinyurl.com/cb49cph
http://tinyurl.com/259eka9
http://tinyurl.com/pssuhwq

Post by vinny
But for some reason, people like stress, mess, and dont value the pride you
get from being kickass.

I hear ya!
the best simplist example of that is cleaning machines.
people will create a disaster mess in their work area, and it will go
unchecked untill cockroaches show up.
Then...the owner/boss/etc/// comes down on them, and they spend a day
cleaning, and now it looks awesome!
Then you see their pride finally coming out.
But....?..............its their mess? they made it that way, as opposed to
operating in a clean environment at all times.
How can you feel heroish over making your area nice, when it should of been
like that all along?

Management is frequently

Post by F. George McDuffee
to blame for this if they reward problem solving and ignore
problem prevention.

good point. I never heard that out loud.

Like the old catch phrase has it --

Post by F. George McDuffee
Excitement has no place on the *PROFITABLE* shop floor --
you want excitement? Join the volleyball team.
I just had a webinar announcement on managing "negativity"
and "problem employees" hit my inbox which may be of
interest.
http://tinyurl.com/pow4zzy

Im gonna pass this on.
"Strategies for saving your sanity in a toxic organization" sweeet!!!

Post by F. George McDuffee
Minutes
"Are you confronted with employees who complain, criticize,
or try to stir up trouble? Do you often feel frustrated and
helpless? You may assume that there is no way to change
these "personality problems", so you just do your best to
contain the damage. However, tolerating such harmful
behaviors is definitely NOT the smartest strategy.
Chronic negativity frequently starts with only one or two
employees, but it can quickly infect an entire department.
When this happens, the inevitable result is reduced
productivity, damaged morale, and eventually increased
turnover, so wise managers try to nip negativity in the
bud."

He just may have been in the wrong line of work for the last
20/30 years. Not all of us are lucky enough to get into the
line of work for which we are [best] suited.

Post by vinny
Maybe the problem is the people doing the hiring are low on the tech side. A
few simple questions could weed out 99% of the rifraf.
Example: are you from up north lol

Indeed screening/apptitude tests should be used, and many of
these are available. In many cases your state employment
service has an entire battery of these tests and will
administer these for free, and can provide pre-screened job
candidates.
There is no point in putting someone who is a "people
person" in a position where there are no people. In the
previous post I had some URLs (with some more below). In
general these tests can't tell who will be successful in a
given position, but these can help avoid trying to pound a
square peg in a round hole, when they would be much happier
and more productive in a sales position.
http://tinyurl.com/c2oh74o
http://tinyurl.com/qe3m3qs
http://tinyurl.com/o6ybysj
A word of caution -- these are pencil and paper tests. You
should also include a basic performance test such as asking
the candidate to mike several random gage pins as close as
they can, while providing them with several measuring
instruments such as a vernier caliper, cheap mike, good mike
in case with check standard, etc. and carefully observing
what they use and how they treat the tools.
If possible try to get a look at their tool box.

WELL< lol if we could do that we would never hire the wrong guy.
The toolbox says it all!

If they

Post by F. George McDuffee
don't have one, or its beat to crap and filled with hammers
and vice grips it tells you one thing, but if its filled
with quality tools in good condition, albeit well-worn, with
some they made themselves, it tells you something else.
I am sure there are many other posters in this thread with
the same problems, some shop owners, and some who just care,
so let us know how things work out. Good Luck!
--
Unka' George
"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"
-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"