Discussion:
Obama's First Impeachable Offense
(too old to reply)
Curly Surmudgeon
2010-05-16 05:05:50 UTC
Permalink
As a Constitutional Scholar Barak should know better:

Coffin_v._United_States:
"The principle that there is a presumption of innocence in favor of the
accused is the undoubted law, axiomatic and elementary, and its
enforcement lies at the foundation of the administration of our criminal
law. … Concluding, then, that the presumption of innocence is evidence in
favor of the accused, introduced by the law in his behalf, let us
consider what is 'reasonable doubt.' It is, of necessity, the condition
of mind produced by the proof resulting from the evidence in the cause.
It is the result of the proof, not the proof itself, whereas the
presumption of innocence is one of the instruments of proof, going to
bring about the proof from which reasonable doubt arises; thus one is a
cause, the other an effect. To say that the one is the equivalent of the
other is therefore to say that legal evidence can be excluded from the
jury, and that such exclusion may be cured by instructing them correctly
in regard to the method by which they are required to reach their
conclusion upon the proof actually before them; in other words, that the
exclusion of an important element of proof can be justified by correctly
instructing as to the proof admitted. The evolution of the principle of
the presumption of innocence, and its resultant, the doctrine of
reasonable doubt, make more apparent the correctness of these views, and
indicate the necessity of enforcing the one in order that the other may
continue to exist."

Fourteenth Amendment: "Due process"

Sixth Amendment: "In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy
the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State
and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which district
shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the
nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses
against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his
favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence."

Fifth Amendment: "No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or
otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a
Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in
the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor
shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in
jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to
be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or
property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken
for public use, without just compensation."

397 U.S. 358 -- The United States Supreme Court decision held that when a
juvenile is charged with an act which would be a crime if committed by an
adult, every element of the offense must be proved beyond a reasonable
doubt, changing the previous standard of preponderance of the evidence.
[1] The case has come to stand for a broader proposition, however, which
is that in any criminal prosecution, every essential element of the
offense must be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. See, e.g., Apprendi v.
New Jersey, 530 U.S. 466, 477 (2000); Sullivan v. Louisiana, 508 U.S.
275, 278 (1993).[2]

All of which support the American policy of "Innocent until proven
guilty."

=========================begin===============================

Confirmed: Obama authorizes assassination of U.S. citizen
By Glenn Greenwald

n late January, I wrote about the Obama administration's "presidential
assassination program," whereby American citizens are targeted for
killings far away from any battlefield, based exclusively on unchecked
accusations by the Executive Branch that they're involved in Terrorism.
At the time, The Washington Post's Dana Priest had noted deep in a long
article that Obama had continued Bush's policy (which Bush never actually
implemented) of having the Joint Chiefs of Staff compile "hit lists" of
Americans, and Priest suggested that the American-born Islamic cleric
Anwar al-Awlaki was on that list. The following week, Obama's Director
of National Intelligence, Adm. Dennis Blair, acknowledged in
Congressional testimony that the administration reserves the "right" to
carry out such assassinations.

Today, both The New York Times and The Washington Post confirm that the
Obama White House has now expressly authorized the CIA to kill al-Alwaki
no matter where he is found, no matter his distance from a battlefield.
I wrote at length about the extreme dangers and lawlessness of allowing
the Executive Branch the power to murder U.S. citizens far away from a
battlefield (i.e., while they're sleeping, at home, with their children,
etc.) and with no due process of any kind. I won't repeat those
arguments -- they're here and here -- but I do want to highlight how
unbelievably Orwellian and tyrannical this is in light of these new
articles today.

Just consider how the NYT reports on Obama's assassination order and how
it is justified:

The Obama administration has taken the extraordinary step of
authorizing the targeted killing of an American citizen, the radical
Muslim cleric Anwar al-Awlaki, who is believed to have shifted from
encouraging attacks on the United States to directly participating in
them, intelligence and counterterrorism officials said Tuesday. . . .

American counterterrorism officials say Mr. Awlaki is an operative of
Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, the affiliate of the terror network in
Yemen and Saudi Arabia. They say they believe that he has become a
recruiter for the terrorist network, feeding prospects into plots aimed
at the United States and at Americans abroad, the officials said.

It is extremely rare, if not unprecedented, for an American to be
approved for targeted killing, officials said. A former senior legal
official in the administration of George W. Bush said he did not know of
any American who was approved for targeted killing under the former
president. . . .

"The danger Awlaki poses to this country is no longer confined to
words," said an American official, who like other current and former
officials interviewed for this article spoke of the classified
counterterrorism measures on the condition of anonymity. "He’s gotten
involved in plots."

No due process is accorded. No charges or trials are necessary. No
evidence is offered, nor any opportunity for him to deny these
accusations (which he has done vehemently through his family). None of
that.

Instead, in Barack Obama's America, the way guilt is determined for
American citizens -- and a death penalty imposed -- is that the
President, like the King he thinks he is, secretly decrees someone's
guilt as a Terrorist. He then dispatches his aides to run to America's
newspapers -- cowardly hiding behind the shield of anonymity which
they're granted -- to proclaim that the Guilty One shall be killed on
sight because the Leader has decreed him to be a Terrorist. It is simply
asserted that Awlaki has converted from a cleric who expresses anti-
American views and advocates attacks on American military targets
(advocacy which happens to be Constitutionally protected) to Actual
Terrorist "involved in plots." These newspapers then print this
Executive Verdict with no questioning, no opposition, no investigation,
no refutation as to its truth. And the punishment is thus decreed: this
American citizen will now be murdered by the CIA because Barack Obama has
ordered that it be done. What kind of person could possibly justify this
or think that this is a legitimate government power?

Just to get a sense for how extreme this behavior is, consider -- as the
NYT reported -- that not even George Bush targeted American citizens for
this type of extra-judicial killing (though a 2002 drone attack in Yemen
did result in the death of an American citizen). Even more strikingly,
Antonin Scalia, in the 2004 case of Hamdi v. Rumsfeld, wrote an Opinion
(joined by Justice Stevens) arguing that it was unconstitutional for the
U.S. Government merely to imprison (let alone kill) American citizens as
"enemy combatants"; instead, they argued, the Constitution required that
Americans be charged with crimes (such as treason) and be given a trial
before being punished. The full Hamdi Court held that at least some due
process was required before Americans could be imprisoned as "enemy
combatants." Yet now, Barack Obama is claiming the right not merely to
imprison, but to assassinate far from any battlefield, American citizens
with no due process of any kind. Even GOP Congressman Pete Hoekstra,
when questioning Adm. Blair, recognized the severe dangers raised by this
asserted power.

And what about all the progressives who screamed for years about the Bush
administration's tyrannical treatment of Jose Padilla? Bush merely
imprisoned Padilla for years without a trial. If that's a vicious,
tyrannical assault on the Constitution -- and it was -- what should they
be saying about the Nobel Peace Prize winner's assassination of American
citizens without any due process?

All of this underscores the principal point made in this excellent new
article by Eli Lake, who compellingly and comprehensively documents what
readers here well know: that while Obama's "speeches and some of his
administration’s policy rollouts have emphasized a break from the Bush
era," the reality is that the administration has retained and, in some
cases, built upon the core Bush/Cheney approach to civil liberties and
Terrorism. As Al Gore asked in his superb 2006 speech protesting Bush's
"War on the Constitution":

Can it be true that any president really has such powers under our
Constitution?

If the answer is yes, then under the theory by which these acts are
committed, are there any acts that can on their face be prohibited?

If the president has the inherent authority to eavesdrop on American
citizens without a warrant, imprison American citizens on his own
declaration, kidnap and torture, then what can't he do?

Notice the power that was missing from Gore's indictment of Bush
radicalism: the power to kill American citizens. Add that to the litany
-- as Obama has now done -- and consider how much more compelling Gore's
accusatory questions become.



UPDATE: When Obama was seeking the Democratic nomination, the
Constitutional Law Scholar answered a questionnaire about executive power
distributed by The Boston Globe's Charlie Savage, and this was one of his
answers:

5. Does the Constitution permit a president to detain US citizens
without charges as unlawful enemy combatants?

[Obama]: No. I reject the Bush Administration's claim that the
President has plenary authority under the Constitution to detain U.S.
citizens without charges as unlawful enemy combatants.

So back then, Obama said the President lacks the power merely to detain
U.S. citizens without charges. Now, as President, he claims the power to
assassinate them without charges. Could even his hardest-core loyalists
try to reconcile that with a straight face? As Spencer Ackerman
documents today, not even John Yoo claimed that the President possessed
the power Obama is claiming here.



UPDATE II: If you're going to go into the comment section -- or anywhere
else -- and argue that this is all justified because Awlaki is an Evil,
Violent, Murdering Terrorist Trying to Kill Americans, you should say how
you know that. Generally, guilt is determined by having a trial where
the evidence is presented and the accused has an opportunity to defend
himself -- not by putting blind authoritarian faith in the unchecked
accusations of government leaders, even if it happens to be Barack
Obama. That's especially true given how many times accusations of
Terrorism by the U.S. Government have proven to be false.



UPDATE III: Congratulations, Barack Obama: you're now to the Right of
National Review on issues of executive power and due process, as Kevin
Williamson objects: "Surely there has to be some operational constraint
on the executive when it comes to the killing of U.S. citizens. . . .
Odious as Awlaki is, this seems to me to be setting an awful and reckless
precedent. " But Andy McCarthy -- who is about the most crazed Far Right
extremist on such matters as it gets, literally -- is as pleased as can
be with what Obama is doing (or, as Gawker puts it, "Obama Does Something
Bloodthirsty Enough to Please the Psychos").



UPDATE IV: Keith Olbermann's coverage of this story was quite good
tonight -- see here. [ http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/
glenn_greenwald/2010/04/08/olbermann/index.html ]

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/04/07/
assassinations
========================end article=========================

This is also the reason I'm against the death penalty. There are lot of
bad people in this world. Many should be snuffed but giving any
government the power to murder its citizens without due process is beyond
dangerous.

Osama won. Beating George Walker Bush was simple. Now Osama has beaten
Obama and destroyed the legal framework and underpinnings of our nation
too.

Fear. You sheeple gave up our ideals.

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little
security will deserve neither and lose both." --Ben Franklin
--
Regards, Curly
Neolibertarian
2010-05-16 12:18:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Fourteenth Amendment: "Due process"
Sixth Amendment: "In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy
the right to a speedy and public trial
[snip]
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Confirmed: Obama authorizes assassination of U.S. citizen
[snip]
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
This is also the reason I'm against the death penalty. There are lot of
bad people in this world. Many should be snuffed but giving any
government the power to murder its citizens without due process is beyond
dangerous.
Of course it's dangerous to give a government this power.

Just because something's dangerous doesn't mean you should become
paralyzed with fear.
--
Neolibertarian

"[The American People] know that we don't have deficits
because people are taxed too little; we have deficits
because big government spends too much."
---Ronald Reagan
Curly Surmudgeon
2010-05-16 18:09:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neolibertarian
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Fourteenth Amendment: "Due process"
Sixth Amendment: "In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy
the right to a speedy and public trial
[snip]
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Confirmed: Obama authorizes assassination of U.S. citizen
[snip]
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
This is also the reason I'm against the death penalty. There are lot
of bad people in this world. Many should be snuffed but giving any
government the power to murder its citizens without due process is
beyond dangerous.
Of course it's dangerous to give a government this power.
Just because something's dangerous doesn't mean you should become
paralyzed with fear.
Of course not. That is precisely what the fear-mongers have done to
America. Killing your citizens by Executive edict violates the rule of
law.

Osama won.
--
Regards, Curly
Neolibertarian
2010-05-16 22:07:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Post by Neolibertarian
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Fourteenth Amendment: "Due process"
Sixth Amendment: "In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy
the right to a speedy and public trial
[snip]
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Confirmed: Obama authorizes assassination of U.S. citizen
[snip]
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
This is also the reason I'm against the death penalty. There are lot
of bad people in this world. Many should be snuffed but giving any
government the power to murder its citizens without due process is
beyond dangerous.
Of course it's dangerous to give a government this power.
Just because something's dangerous doesn't mean you should become
paralyzed with fear.
Of course not. That is precisely what the fear-mongers have done to
America. Killing your citizens by Executive edict violates the rule of
law.
Osama won.
That's about as goofy as it gets.

Osama bin Laden wasn't ever the enemy. At his zenith, he was merely the
Rush Limbaugh of the Global Jihad.
--
Neolibertarian

"[The American People] know that we don't have deficits
because people are taxed too little; we have deficits
because big government spends too much."
---Ronald Reagan
PayGo
2010-05-16 22:36:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Post by Neolibertarian
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Fourteenth Amendment: "Due process"
Sixth Amendment: "In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy
the right to a speedy and public trial
[snip]
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Confirmed: Obama authorizes assassination of U.S. citizen
[snip]
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
This is also the reason I'm against the death penalty. There are lot
of bad people in this world. Many should be snuffed but giving any
government the power to murder its citizens without due process is
beyond dangerous.
Of course it's dangerous to give a government this power.
Just because something's dangerous doesn't mean you should become
paralyzed with fear.
Of course not. That is precisely what the fear-mongers have done to
America. Killing your citizens by Executive edict violates the rule of
law.
Osama won.
typo, Obama won.
Killing, Inc.
2010-05-17 00:40:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by PayGo
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Post by Neolibertarian
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Fourteenth Amendment: "Due process"
Sixth Amendment: "In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy
the right to a speedy and public trial
[snip]
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Confirmed: Obama authorizes assassination of U.S. citizen
[snip]
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
This is also the reason I'm against the death penalty. There are lot
of bad people in this world. Many should be snuffed but giving any
government the power to murder its citizens without due process is
beyond dangerous.
Of course it's dangerous to give a government this power.
Just because something's dangerous doesn't mean you should become
paralyzed with fear.
Of course not. That is precisely what the fear-mongers have done to
America. Killing your citizens by Executive edict violates the rule of
law.
Osama won.
typo, Obama won.
Now you're just being redundant.

Democrats and other extremist, regressive left-wing fascists are still
the dumbest creatures on the planet.
Shall not be infringed
2010-05-17 01:31:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Killing, Inc.
Post by Neolibertarian
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Fourteenth Amendment:  "Due process"
Sixth Amendment: "In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy
the right to a speedy and public trial
[snip]
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Confirmed: Obama authorizes assassination of U.S. citizen
[snip]
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
This is also the reason I'm against the death penalty.  There are lot
of bad people in this world.  Many should be snuffed but giving any
government the power to murder its citizens without due process is
beyond dangerous.
Of course it's dangerous to give a government this power.
Just because something's dangerous doesn't mean you should become
paralyzed with fear.
Of course not.  That is precisely what the fear-mongers have done to
America.  Killing your citizens by Executive edict violates the rule of
law.
Osama won.
typo,  Obama won.
Now you're just being redundant.
Democrats and other extremist, regressive left-wing fascists are still
the dumbest creatures on the planet.
Yeh, but they think they are so smart. Just ask Cur-Lee Scummudgeon
how many boods he's read.
Curly Surmudgeon
2010-05-17 10:39:26 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 16 May 2010 17:40:27 -0700, "Killing, Inc."
Post by Killing, Inc.
Post by PayGo
On Sun, 16 May 2010 07:18:29 -0500,
Post by Neolibertarian
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Fourteenth Amendment: "Due process"
Sixth Amendment: "In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall
enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial
[snip]
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Confirmed: Obama authorizes assassination of U.S. citizen
[snip]
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
This is also the reason I'm against the death penalty. There are
lot of bad people in this world. Many should be snuffed but giving
any government the power to murder its citizens without due process
is beyond dangerous.
Of course it's dangerous to give a government this power.
Just because something's dangerous doesn't mean you should become
paralyzed with fear.
Of course not. That is precisely what the fear-mongers have done to
America. Killing your citizens by Executive edict violates the rule
of law.
Osama won.
typo, Obama won.
Now you're just being redundant.
Democrats and other extremist, regressive left-wing fascists are still
the dumbest creatures on the planet.
Take it elsewhere, cockroach, and stop infecting every thread with your
Bush apologies.
--
Regards, Curly
Shall not be infringed
2010-05-17 11:20:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
On Sun, 16 May 2010 17:40:27 -0700, "Killing, Inc."
Post by Killing, Inc.
On Sun, 16 May 2010 07:18:29 -0500,
Post by Neolibertarian
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Fourteenth Amendment:  "Due process"
Sixth Amendment: "In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall
enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial
[snip]
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Confirmed: Obama authorizes assassination of U.S. citizen
[snip]
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
This is also the reason I'm against the death penalty.  There are
lot of bad people in this world.  Many should be snuffed but giving
any government the power to murder its citizens without due process
is beyond dangerous.
Of course it's dangerous to give a government this power.
Just because something's dangerous doesn't mean you should become
paralyzed with fear.
Of course not.  That is precisely what the fear-mongers have done to
America.  Killing your citizens by Executive edict violates the rule
of law.
Osama won.
typo,  Obama won.
Now you're just being redundant.
Democrats and other extremist, regressive left-wing fascists are still
the dumbest creatures on the planet.
Take it elsewhere, cockroach, and stop infecting every thread with your
Bush apologies.
Did 0bama read Miranda Rights to the Somali he had murdered?

Did the Somali have his day in court?

No and No. 0bama ordered his murder. It was on television.

You missed it because you are hiding in some 3rd world nation known
for coups and revolutions.
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
--
Regards, Curly
---------------------------------------------------------------------------­---
              The Bible: Slavery good, gays bad, snakes talk.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------­----
Iarnrod
2010-05-17 12:30:27 UTC
Permalink
On May 17, 5:20 am, Shall not be infringed <hot-ham-and-
Post by Shall not be infringed
Did 0bama read Miranda Rights to the Somali he had murdered?
Did the Somali have his day in court?
No and No.  0bama ordered his murder.  It was on television.
You missed it because you are hiding in some 3rd world nation known
for coups and revolutions.
Stop using drugs.
Shall not be infringed
2010-05-17 23:12:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Iarnrod
On May 17, 5:20 am, Shall not be infringed <hot-ham-and-
Post by Shall not be infringed
Did 0bama read Miranda Rights to the Somali he had murdered?
Did the Somali have his day in court?
No and No.  0bama ordered his murder.  It was on television.
You missed it because you are hiding in some 3rd world nation known
for coups and revolutions.
Stop using drugs.
Stop wasting air.
Iarnrod
2010-05-18 03:26:08 UTC
Permalink
On May 17, 5:12 pm, Shall not be infringed <hot-ham-and-
Post by Shall not be infringed
Post by Iarnrod
On May 17, 5:20 am, Shall not be infringed <hot-ham-and-
Post by Shall not be infringed
Did 0bama read Miranda Rights to the Somali he had murdered?
Did the Somali have his day in court?
No and No.  0bama ordered his murder.  It was on television.
You missed it because you are hiding in some 3rd world nation known
for coups and revolutions.
Stop using drugs.
Stop wasting air.
Stop being stupid.
P***@Pajamas.com
2010-05-17 14:48:19 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 17 May 2010 04:20:40 -0700 (PDT), Shall not be infringed
Post by Shall not be infringed
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Take it elsewhere, cockroach, and stop infecting every thread with your
Bush apologies.
Did 0bama read Miranda Rights to the Somali he had murdered?
They couldn't agree on any date...
Post by Shall not be infringed
Did the Somali have his day in court?
No, most were busy at the time.
Post by Shall not be infringed
No and No. 0bama ordered his murder. It was on television.
Better than reading your e-mail, dontcha think?
Shall not be infringed
2010-05-17 23:15:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
On Mon, 17 May 2010 04:20:40 -0700 (PDT), Shall not be infringed
Post by Shall not be infringed
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Take it elsewhere, cockroach, and stop infecting every thread with your
Bush apologies.
Did 0bama read Miranda Rights to the Somali he had murdered?
They couldn't agree on any date...
Post by Shall not be infringed
Did the Somali have his day in court?
No, most were busy at the time.
Post by Shall not be infringed
No and No.  0bama ordered his murder.  It was on television.
Better than reading your e-mail, dontcha think?
Cur-Lee says that 0bama's present hit list is 0bama's 1st impeachable
offense. Yet he's already had at least one person murdered, right?
P***@Pajamas.com
2010-05-17 14:47:15 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 17 May 2010 10:39:26 +0000 (UTC), Curly Surmudgeon
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Post by Killing, Inc.
Democrats and other extremist, regressive left-wing fascists are still
the dumbest creatures on the planet.
Take it elsewhere, cockroach, and stop infecting every thread with your
Bush apologies.
I understand Filedud is accepting application to his Mexico
trailerpark---

Perhaps he could apply there...
Shall not be infringed
2010-05-17 23:15:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
On Mon, 17 May 2010 10:39:26 +0000 (UTC), Curly Surmudgeon
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Post by Killing, Inc.
Democrats and other extremist, regressive left-wing fascists are still
the dumbest creatures on the planet.
Take it elsewhere, cockroach, and stop infecting every thread with your
Bush apologies.
I understand Filedud is accepting application to his Mexico
trailerpark---
Perhaps he could apply there...
It's in Argentina, not Mexico.
Shall not be infringed
2010-05-16 13:19:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
"The principle that there is a presumption of innocence in favor of the
accused is the undoubted law, axiomatic and elementary, and its
enforcement lies at the foundation of the administration of our criminal
law. … Concluding, then, that the presumption of innocence is evidence in
favor of the accused, introduced by the law in his behalf, let us
consider what is 'reasonable doubt.' It is, of necessity, the condition
of mind produced by the proof resulting from the evidence in the cause.
It is the result of the proof, not the proof itself, whereas the
presumption of innocence is one of the instruments of proof, going to
bring about the proof from which reasonable doubt arises; thus one is a
cause, the other an effect. To say that the one is the equivalent of the
other is therefore to say that legal evidence can be excluded from the
jury, and that such exclusion may be cured by instructing them correctly
in regard to the method by which they are required to reach their
conclusion upon the proof actually before them; in other words, that the
exclusion of an important element of proof can be justified by correctly
instructing as to the proof admitted. The evolution of the principle of
the presumption of innocence, and its resultant, the doctrine of
reasonable doubt, make more apparent the correctness of these views, and
indicate the necessity of enforcing the one in order that the other may
continue to exist."
Fourteenth Amendment:  "Due process"
Sixth Amendment: "In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy
the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State
and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which district
shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the
nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses
against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his
favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence."
Fifth Amendment: "No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or
otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a
Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in
the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor
shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in
jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to
be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or
property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken
for public use, without just compensation."
397 U.S. 358 -- The United States Supreme Court decision held that when a
juvenile is charged with an act which would be a crime if committed by an
adult, every element of the offense must be proved beyond a reasonable
doubt, changing the previous standard of preponderance of the evidence.
[1] The case has come to stand for a broader proposition, however, which
is that in any criminal prosecution, every essential element of the
offense must be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. See, e.g., Apprendi v.
New Jersey, 530 U.S. 466, 477 (2000); Sullivan v. Louisiana, 508 U.S.
275, 278 (1993).[2]
All of which support the American policy of "Innocent until proven
guilty."
=========================begin===============================
Confirmed: Obama authorizes assassination of U.S. citizen
By Glenn Greenwald
n late January, I wrote about the Obama administration's "presidential
assassination program," whereby American citizens are targeted for
killings far away from any battlefield, based exclusively on unchecked
accusations by the Executive Branch that they're involved in Terrorism.  
At the time, The Washington Post's Dana Priest had noted deep in a long
article that Obama had continued Bush's policy (which Bush never actually
implemented) of having the Joint Chiefs of Staff compile "hit lists" of
Americans, and Priest suggested that the American-born Islamic cleric
Anwar al-Awlaki was on that list.  The following week, Obama's Director
of National Intelligence, Adm. Dennis Blair, acknowledged in
Congressional testimony that the administration reserves the "right" to
carry out such assassinations.
Today, both The New York Times and The Washington Post confirm that the
Obama White House has now expressly authorized the CIA to kill al-Alwaki
no matter where he is found, no matter his distance from a battlefield.  
I wrote at length about the extreme dangers and lawlessness of allowing
the Executive Branch the power to murder U.S. citizens far away from a
battlefield (i.e., while they're sleeping, at home, with their children,
etc.) and with no due process of any kind.  I won't repeat those
arguments -- they're here and here -- but I do want to highlight how
unbelievably Orwellian and tyrannical this is in light of these new
articles today.
Just consider how the NYT reports on Obama's assassination order and how
    The Obama administration has taken the extraordinary step of
authorizing the targeted killing of an American citizen, the radical
Muslim cleric Anwar al-Awlaki, who is believed to have shifted from
encouraging attacks on the United States to directly participating in
them, intelligence and counterterrorism officials said Tuesday. . . .
    American counterterrorism officials say Mr. Awlaki is an operative of
Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, the affiliate of the terror network in
Yemen and Saudi Arabia. They say they believe that he has become a
recruiter for the terrorist network, feeding prospects into plots aimed
at the United States and at Americans abroad, the officials said.
    It is extremely rare, if not unprecedented, for an American to be
approved for targeted killing, officials said.  A former senior legal
official in the administration of George W. Bush said he did not know of
any American who was approved for targeted killing under the former
president. . . .
    "The danger Awlaki poses to this country is no longer confined to
words," said an American official, who like other current and former
officials interviewed for this article spoke of the classified
counterterrorism measures on the condition of anonymity. "He’s gotten
involved in plots."
No due process is accorded.  No charges or trials are necessary.  No
evidence is offered, nor any opportunity for him to deny these
accusations (which he has done vehemently through his family).  None of
that.  
Instead, in Barack Obama's America, the way guilt is determined for
American citizens -- and a death penalty imposed -- is that the
President, like the King he thinks he is, secretly decrees someone's
guilt as a Terrorist.  He then dispatches his aides to run to America's
newspapers -- cowardly hiding behind the shield of anonymity which
they're granted -- to proclaim that the Guilty One shall be killed on
sight because the Leader has decreed him to be a Terrorist.  It is simply
asserted that Awlaki has converted from a cleric who expresses anti-
American views and advocates attacks on American military targets
(advocacy which happens to be Constitutionally protected) to Actual
Terrorist "involved in plots."  These newspapers then print this
Executive Verdict with no questioning, no opposition, no investigation,
no refutation as to its truth.  And the punishment is thus decreed:  this
American citizen will now be murdered by the CIA because Barack Obama has
ordered that it be done.  What kind of person could possibly justify this
or think that this is a legitimate government power?
Just to get a sense for how extreme this behavior is, consider -- as the
NYT reported -- that not even George Bush targeted American citizens for
this type of extra-judicial killing (though a 2002 drone attack in Yemen
did result in the death of an American citizen).  Even more strikingly,
Antonin Scalia, in the 2004 case of Hamdi v. Rumsfeld, wrote an Opinion
(joined by Justice Stevens) arguing that it was unconstitutional for the
U.S. Government merely to imprison (let alone kill) American citizens as
"enemy combatants"; instead, they argued, the Constitution required that
Americans be charged with crimes (such as treason) and be given a trial
before being punished.  The full Hamdi Court held that at least some due
process was required before Americans could be imprisoned as "enemy
combatants."  Yet now, Barack Obama is claiming the right not merely to
imprison, but to assassinate far from any battlefield, American citizens
with no due process of any kind.  Even GOP Congressman Pete Hoekstra,
when questioning Adm. Blair, recognized the severe dangers raised by this
asserted power.
And what about all the progressives who screamed for years about the Bush
administration's tyrannical treatment of Jose Padilla?  Bush merely
imprisoned Padilla for years without a trial.  If that's a vicious,
tyrannical assault on the Constitution -- and it was -- what should they
be saying about the Nobel Peace Prize winner's assassination of American
citizens without any due process?
All of this underscores the principal point made in this excellent new
article by Eli Lake, who compellingly and comprehensively documents what
readers here well know:  that while Obama's "speeches and some of his
administration’s policy rollouts have emphasized a break from the Bush
era,"  the reality is that the administration has retained and, in some
cases, built upon the core Bush/Cheney approach to civil liberties and
Terrorism.  As Al Gore asked in his superb 2006 speech protesting Bush's
    Can it be true that any president really has such powers under our
Constitution?
    If the answer is yes, then under the theory by which these acts are
committed, are there any acts that can on their face be prohibited?
    If the president has the inherent authority to eavesdrop on American
citizens without a warrant, imprison American citizens on his own
declaration, kidnap and torture, then what can't he do?
Notice the power that was missing from Gore's indictment of Bush
radicalism:  the power to kill American citizens.  Add that to the litany
-- as Obama has now done -- and consider how much more compelling Gore's
accusatory questions become.
UPDATE:  When Obama was seeking the Democratic nomination, the
Constitutional Law Scholar answered a questionnaire about executive power
distributed by The Boston Globe's Charlie Savage, and this was one of his
    5. Does the Constitution permit a president to detain US citizens
without charges as unlawful enemy combatants?
    [Obama]:  No. I reject the Bush Administration's claim that the
President has plenary authority under the Constitution to detain U.S.
citizens without charges as unlawful enemy combatants.
So back then, Obama said the President lacks the power merely to detain
U.S. citizens without charges.  Now, as President, he claims the power to
assassinate them without charges.  Could even his hardest-core loyalists
try to reconcile that with a straight face?  As Spencer Ackerman
documents today, not even John Yoo claimed that the President possessed
the power Obama is claiming here.
UPDATE II:  If you're going to go into the comment section -- or anywhere
else -- and argue that this is all justified because Awlaki is an Evil,
Violent, Murdering Terrorist Trying to Kill Americans, you should say how
you know that.  Generally, guilt is determined by having a trial where
the evidence is presented and the accused has an opportunity to defend
himself -- not by putting blind authoritarian faith in the unchecked
accusations of government leaders, even if it happens to be Barack
Obama.  That's especially true given how many times accusations of
Terrorism by the U.S. Government have proven to be false.
UPDATE III:  Congratulations, Barack Obama:  you're now to the Right of
National Review on issues of executive power and due process, as Kevin
Williamson objects:  "Surely there has to be some operational constraint
on the executive when it comes to the killing of U.S. citizens. . . .
Odious as Awlaki is, this seems to me to be setting an awful and reckless
precedent. "  But Andy McCarthy -- who is about the most crazed Far Right
extremist on such matters as it gets, literally -- is as pleased as can
be with what Obama is doing (or, as Gawker puts it, "Obama Does Something
Bloodthirsty Enough to Please the Psychos").
UPDATE IV:  Keith Olbermann's coverage of this story was quite good
tonight -- see here. [http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/
glenn_greenwald/2010/04/08/olbermann/index.html ]
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/04/07/
assassinations
========================end article=========================
This is also the reason I'm against the death penalty.  There are lot of
bad people in this world.  Many should be snuffed but giving any
government the power to murder its citizens without due process is beyond
dangerous.
Osama won.  Beating George Walker Bush was simple.  Now Osama has beaten
Obama and destroyed the legal framework and underpinnings of our nation
too.
Fear.  You sheeple gave up our ideals.
Albert Lee Mitchell is sheeple.

Fear. It made him run away to Argentina, surround himself with
Catholics, and call all of them "CrazyMotherFuckers" for giving him
shelter.
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little
security will deserve neither and lose both."  --Ben Franklin
--
Regards, Curly
---------------------------------------------------------------------------­---
                     http://www.curlysurmudgeon.net
---------------------------------------------------------------------------­---
Shall not be infringed
2010-05-16 14:09:38 UTC
Permalink
On May 16, 9:19 am, Shall not be infringed <hot-ham-and-
Snip
Post by Shall not be infringed
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
This is also the reason I'm against the death penalty.  There are lot of
bad people in this world.  Many should be snuffed but giving any
government the power to murder its citizens without due process is beyond
dangerous.
Osama won.  Beating George Walker Bush was simple.  Now Osama has beaten
Obama and destroyed the legal framework and underpinnings of our nation
too.
Fear.  You sheeple gave up our ideals.
Albert Lee Mitchell is sheeple.
Fear.  It made him run away to Argentina, surround himself with
Catholics, and call all of them "CrazyMotherFuckers" for giving him
shelter.
And didn't 0bama already order the execution of that Somali youth?
Post by Shall not be infringed
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
security will deserve neither and lose both."  --Ben Franklin
--
Regards, Curly
---------------------------------------------------------------------------­­---
                     http://www.curlysurmudgeon.net
---------------------------------------------------------------------------­­---
P***@Pajamas.com
2010-05-16 14:37:53 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 16 May 2010 05:05:50 +0000 (UTC), Curly Surmudgeon
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Osama won. Beating George Walker Bush was simple. Now Osama has beaten
Obama and destroyed the legal framework and underpinnings of our nation
too.
Fear. You sheeple gave up our ideals.
As long as they NEVER reinstitute loonytarian "principles" like we
suffered from at the turn of last century----we can rest easy.
PrecisionmachinisT
2010-05-16 15:39:19 UTC
Permalink
"Curly Surmudgeon" <***@live.com> wrote in message news:hsnufe$i4q$***@news.eternal-september.org...

Punishment without trial doesn't go from being okay under Bush to being
unacceptable under Obama.
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Osama won.
No, Bush failed.

But Obama has 6+ years left in which to reverse the damage.

--
Curly Surmudgeon
2010-05-16 18:15:40 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 16 May 2010 07:39:19 -0800, "PrecisionmachinisT"
Post by PrecisionmachinisT
Punishment without trial doesn't go from being okay under Bush to being
unacceptable under Obama.
Absolutely. Perhaps, due to the distribution list, you've not seen the
fire I've taken for 5 years advocating criminal trials and impeachment of
the Bush Crime Syndicate for this, and other, transgressions.

I've been a very reluctant Obama supporter because of the economic
disaster Bush left us. I felt/feel that the economic health of our
nation drives all else. If you'll remember the situation a year ago
where the DOW had plunged about 10,000 points from it's peak and the rate
of change was increasing.

The economy is Obama's Dan Quayle.
Post by PrecisionmachinisT
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Osama won.
No, Bush failed.
That too.
Post by PrecisionmachinisT
But Obama has 6+ years left in which to reverse the damage.
Probably correct but some of Obama's actions concern me greatly, such as
this, ordering American citizens killed iwthout judicial review.
--
Regards, Curly
* US *
2010-05-17 02:39:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by PrecisionmachinisT
Punishment without trial doesn't go from being okay under Bush to
being unacceptable under Obama.
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Osama won.
No, Bush failed.
Failed to do what? Increase his political donations by 10 times per
donor? Refuse to hire any key staff members with unpaid taxes? Refused
to bend over for liberals? Refused to kiss any Muslim ass?

All things Obama is famous for.
Post by PrecisionmachinisT
But Obama has 6+ years left in which to reverse the damage.
Yeah, Obama makes jokes too. If Obama lives out this term, he'll never
see another.

NAFTA baby. When Clinton signed it the writing was on the wall for this
financial collapse.
unknown
2010-05-17 02:44:42 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 17 May 2010 02:39:33 +0000 (UTC), "* fake *"
Failed ...
You can't succeed because you're not dealing with reality.
Jeff M
2010-05-17 03:16:57 UTC
Permalink
On 5/16/2010 9:39 PM, * US * wrote:
[snip]
Post by * US *
Post by PrecisionmachinisT
No, Bush failed.
Failed to do what? Increase his political donations by 10 times per
donor? Refuse to hire any key staff members with unpaid taxes? Refused
to bend over for liberals? Refused to kiss any Muslim ass?
No, he just held their hands and fawned all over his Saudi masters.
Post by * US *
NAFTA baby. When Clinton signed it the writing was on the wall for this
financial collapse.
Negotiated, endorsed and supported by Bush I, too.
unknown
2010-05-17 03:27:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff M
Post by * US *
Post by PrecisionmachinisT
No, Bush failed.
Failed to do what? Increase his political donations by 10 times per
donor? Refuse to hire any key staff members with unpaid taxes? Refused
to bend over for liberals? Refused to kiss any Muslim ass?
No, he just held their hands and fawned all over his Saudi masters.
Post by * US *
NAFTA baby. When Clinton signed it the writing was on the wall for this
financial collapse.
Negotiated, endorsed and supported by Bush I, too.
True.
PrecisionmachinisT
2010-05-18 15:35:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neolibertarian
[snip]
Post by * US *
Post by PrecisionmachinisT
No, Bush failed.
Failed to do what? Increase his political donations by 10 times per
donor? Refuse to hire any key staff members with unpaid taxes? Refused
to bend over for liberals? Refused to kiss any Muslim ass?
No, he just held their hands and fawned all over his Saudi masters.
Post by * US *
NAFTA baby. When Clinton signed it the writing was on the wall for this
financial collapse.
Negotiated, endorsed and supported by Bush I, too.
The agreement's supporters included 132 Republicans and 102 Democrats.

And in its original form.it was nothing more than a means of circumventing
US environmental and worker safety law while obtaining labor at below
poverty wages.


--
Curly Surmudgeon
2010-05-19 05:39:03 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 18 May 2010 07:35:53 -0800, "PrecisionmachinisT"
Post by PrecisionmachinisT
Post by Neolibertarian
[snip]
Post by * US *
Post by PrecisionmachinisT
No, Bush failed.
Failed to do what? Increase his political donations by 10 times per
donor? Refuse to hire any key staff members with unpaid taxes?
Refused to bend over for liberals? Refused to kiss any Muslim ass?
No, he just held their hands and fawned all over his Saudi masters.
Post by * US *
NAFTA baby. When Clinton signed it the writing was on the wall for
this financial collapse.
Negotiated, endorsed and supported by Bush I, too.
The agreement's supporters included 132 Republicans and 102 Democrats.
And in its original form.it was nothing more than a means of
circumventing US environmental and worker safety law while obtaining
labor at below poverty wages.
All true but beside the point of Obama issuing a death warrant on an
American citizen who has not been tried or convicted.

This is what Bush ushered in. This is what the next President does with
the unconstitutional wars, policies and actions. Each time our liberties
are infringed it gets a little easier for the Next Guy.
--
Regards, Curly
PrecisionmachinisT
2010-05-19 06:23:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
On Tue, 18 May 2010 07:35:53 -0800, "PrecisionmachinisT"
Post by PrecisionmachinisT
Post by Neolibertarian
[snip]
Post by * US *
Post by PrecisionmachinisT
No, Bush failed.
Failed to do what? Increase his political donations by 10 times per
donor? Refuse to hire any key staff members with unpaid taxes?
Refused to bend over for liberals? Refused to kiss any Muslim ass?
No, he just held their hands and fawned all over his Saudi masters.
Post by * US *
NAFTA baby. When Clinton signed it the writing was on the wall for
this financial collapse.
Negotiated, endorsed and supported by Bush I, too.
The agreement's supporters included 132 Republicans and 102 Democrats.
And in its original form.it was nothing more than a means of
circumventing US environmental and worker safety law while obtaining
labor at below poverty wages.
All true but beside the point of Obama issuing a death warrant on an
American citizen who has not been tried or convicted.
This is what Bush ushered in. This is what the next President does with
the unconstitutional wars, policies and actions. Each time our liberties
are infringed it gets a little easier for the Next Guy.
Okay I'm on it then...

Beings as every since Clinton bombed a supposed "aspirin factory" in Sudan
(in what might well have been also the first US attempt at killing Bin
Laden)--somehow it's now become in-vogue for the US to dispense with "due
process"--fuckit lets drop bombs, invade a few countries kill a dictator
because we cant locate one of the actual perp....nevermind that the 34 of
the perps who died in the act might well account for the vast majority of
the total people involved ...

==

I must say I have to give the "muslim terrorists" a big, huge, thumbs up--at
least where it regards their ability to effect the significant erosion of
law and order--clearly, and consistantly they end up succesful in that
particular game, both here and abroad.

--
P***@Pajamas.com
2010-05-19 14:30:20 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 18 May 2010 22:23:54 -0800, "PrecisionmachinisT"
Post by PrecisionmachinisT
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
This is what Bush ushered in. This is what the next President does with
the unconstitutional wars, policies and actions. Each time our liberties
are infringed it gets a little easier for the Next Guy.
Okay I'm on it then...
Beings as every since Clinton bombed a supposed "aspirin factory" in Sudan
Based on intel given him by the best authority we had. Imagine the
hue and cry had republicans gotten hold of the intel and he not have
lobbed a missile there.
Post by PrecisionmachinisT
(in what might well have been also the first US attempt at killing Bin
Laden)--somehow it's now become in-vogue for the US to dispense with "due
process"--fuckit lets drop bombs, invade a few countries kill a dictator
because we cant locate one of the actual perp....nevermind that the 34 of
the perps who died in the act might well account for the vast majority of
the total people involved ...
Worked well in the Balkans.
Post by PrecisionmachinisT
I must say I have to give the "muslim terrorists" a big, huge, thumbs up--at
least where it regards their ability to effect the significant erosion of
law and order
Name any act by "gummint" that has affected you.
Uhh Clem
2010-05-19 17:49:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
On Tue, 18 May 2010 22:23:54 -0800, "PrecisionmachinisT"
Post by PrecisionmachinisT
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
This is what Bush ushered in. This is what the next President does with
the unconstitutional wars, policies and actions. Each time our liberties
are infringed it gets a little easier for the Next Guy.
Okay I'm on it then...
Beings as every since Clinton bombed a supposed "aspirin factory" in Sudan
Based on intel given him by the best authority we had. Imagine the
hue and cry had republicans gotten hold of the intel and he not have
lobbed a missile there.
But he didn't continue with a pattern of genocide for the next 8 years and
counting.
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
Post by PrecisionmachinisT
(in what might well have been also the first US attempt at killing Bin
Laden)--somehow it's now become in-vogue for the US to dispense with "due
process"--fuckit lets drop bombs, invade a few countries kill a dictator
because we cant locate one of the actual perp....nevermind that the 34 of
the perps who died in the act might well account for the vast majority of
the total people involved ...
Worked well in the Balkans.
One could argue otherwise.
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
Post by PrecisionmachinisT
I must say I have to give the "muslim terrorists" a big, huge, thumbs up--at
least where it regards their ability to effect the significant erosion of
law and order
Name any act by "gummint" that has affected you.
Been bent over at an airport or harassed by US customs upon returning from
Canada lately ?

--

"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out - because I was
not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out - because I was
not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out - because I
was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out - because I was not a
Jew;
Then they came for me - and there was no one left to speak out for me." -
Martin Niemoller
P***@Pajamas.com
2010-05-19 17:21:33 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 19 May 2010 09:49:43 -0800, "Uhh Clem"
Post by Uhh Clem
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
Name any act by "gummint" that has affected you.
Been bent over at an airport or harassed by US customs upon returning from
Canada lately ?
Nope.

But I'd pay money to see PAJAMA and his boyfriend have to do it.
Curly Surmudgeon
2010-05-20 06:19:23 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 18 May 2010 22:23:54 -0800, "PrecisionmachinisT"
Post by PrecisionmachinisT
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
On Tue, 18 May 2010 07:35:53 -0800, "PrecisionmachinisT"
Post by PrecisionmachinisT
Post by Neolibertarian
[snip]
Post by * US *
Post by PrecisionmachinisT
No, Bush failed.
Failed to do what? Increase his political donations by 10 times
per donor? Refuse to hire any key staff members with unpaid
taxes? Refused to bend over for liberals? Refused to kiss any
Muslim ass?
No, he just held their hands and fawned all over his Saudi masters.
Post by * US *
NAFTA baby. When Clinton signed it the writing was on the wall
for this financial collapse.
Negotiated, endorsed and supported by Bush I, too.
The agreement's supporters included 132 Republicans and 102
Democrats.
And in its original form.it was nothing more than a means of
circumventing US environmental and worker safety law while obtaining
labor at below poverty wages.
All true but beside the point of Obama issuing a death warrant on an
American citizen who has not been tried or convicted.
This is what Bush ushered in. This is what the next President does
with the unconstitutional wars, policies and actions. Each time our
liberties are infringed it gets a little easier for the Next Guy.
Okay I'm on it then...
Beings as every since Clinton bombed a supposed "aspirin factory" in
Sudan (in what might well have been also the first US attempt at killing
Bin Laden)--somehow it's now become in-vogue for the US to dispense with
"due process"--fuckit lets drop bombs, invade a few countries kill a
dictator because we cant locate one of the actual perp....nevermind that
the 34 of the perps who died in the act might well account for the vast
majority of the total people involved ...
Oh, it began long before Clinton. Nixon/Kissinger to be sure, probably
Reagan/Bush41, Eisenhower/Nixon, Johnson and Bush41 too. Covert
assassination has probably been a barely kept secret, with plausable
denial, for decades. From hiring it out with mercenaries, use of other
nations to kill for us, it's an expedient way of ridding the current
administration of "problems."

Blow back has always been the problem. Obama promised an "Open
Government." Now we know what he meant. Anwar al-Awlaki is a scumbag to
be sure. Allowing our government to kill any American Citizen they
believe to be a scumbag is an incredible leap of illogic. If al-Awlaki
is indeed snuffed then we must prosecute Obama for premeditated murder
for hire.

Why are we having this conversation?
Post by PrecisionmachinisT
==
I must say I have to give the "muslim terrorists" a big, huge, thumbs
up--at least where it regards their ability to effect the significant
erosion of law and order--clearly, and consistantly they end up
succesful in that particular game, both here and abroad.
--
Regards, Curly
P***@Pajamas.com
2010-05-20 13:11:57 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 20 May 2010 06:19:23 +0000 (UTC), Curly Surmudgeon
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Blow back has always been the problem. Obama promised an "Open
Government." Now we know what he meant.
Nothing wrong with covert operations including those that conduct
operations against individuals.

The problem was that Nixon/Reagan/Bush lied to those who had the
constitutional duty to oversee the operations

Not so much Bush because he had a republican dominated congress who
hid much from the opposition members
Curly Surmudgeon
2010-05-20 14:13:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
On Thu, 20 May 2010 06:19:23 +0000 (UTC), Curly Surmudgeon
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Blow back has always been the problem. Obama promised an "Open
Government." Now we know what he meant.
Nothing wrong with covert operations including those that conduct
operations against individuals.
Then you condone illegal action by whatever government is in power.
Don't let me hear you bitch about Bush again.
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
The problem was that Nixon/Reagan/Bush lied to those who had the
constitutional duty to oversee the operations
That too but the fundamental problem was their illegal activities.
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
Not so much Bush because he had a republican dominated congress who hid
much from the opposition members
Perhaps the worst of the bunch but I do not like arguing the evilist of
many lessors. Unconstitutional behavior by our leaders must be dealt
with draconian force.
--
Regards, Curly
P***@Pajamas.com
2010-05-20 16:30:48 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 20 May 2010 14:13:19 +0000 (UTC), Curly Surmudgeon
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
Nothing wrong with covert operations including those that conduct
operations against individuals.
Then you condone illegal action by whatever government is in power.
Don't let me hear you bitch about Bush again.
I just told you that BUsh's crime was secrecy---keeping the congress
uninformed properly

Same as reagan who not only committed perjury but subverted government
the same as Bush

Reagan (and bush) didn't inform the committees and politicians set up
to oversee those "kinds" of operations. That was the crime
P***@Pajamas.com
2010-05-20 16:32:10 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 20 May 2010 14:13:19 +0000 (UTC), Curly Surmudgeon
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
Not so much Bush because he had a republican dominated congress who hid
much from the opposition members
Perhaps the worst of the bunch but I do not like arguing the evilist of
many lessors. Unconstitutional behavior by our leaders must be dealt
with draconian force.
You keep saying "unconstitutional" but with a notion that "literalist"
reading is the only acceptible interpretation of the constitution.

Simply isn't an accepted doctrine.
Shall not be infringed
2010-05-20 18:17:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
On Thu, 20 May 2010 14:13:19 +0000 (UTC), Curly Surmudgeon
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
Not so much Bush because he had a republican dominated congress who hid
much from the opposition members
Perhaps the worst of the bunch but I do not like arguing the evilist of
many lessors.  Unconstitutional behavior by our leaders must be dealt
with draconian force.
You keep saying "unconstitutional" but with a notion that "literalist"
reading is the only acceptible interpretation of the constitution.
Simply isn't an accepted doctrine.
Cur-Lee is a "Fundie" zealot in all things. And he insists that all
Cristians be fundamentalists so that his lies about them will become
true.
Shall not be infringed
2010-05-20 18:13:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
On Thu, 20 May 2010 06:19:23 +0000 (UTC), Curly Surmudgeon
Blow back has always been the problem.  Obama promised an "Open
Government."  Now we know what he meant.
Nothing wrong with covert operations including those that conduct
operations against individuals.
The problem was that Nixon/Reagan/Bush lied to those who had the
constitutional duty to oversee the operations
Not so much Bush because he had a republican dominated congress who
hid much from the opposition members
Actually, Bush was severly criticised for not informing congress how
he spent the money they authorized him to spend on the war.

He stopped informing them when they left the meeting and immediately
broadcast our to our classified plans to our enemies via our Main
Stream Media. I would have been incarcerated at Fort Leavenworth for
having done the same thing.
P***@Pajamas.com
2010-05-19 14:27:31 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 19 May 2010 05:39:03 +0000 (UTC), Curly Surmudgeon
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
All true but beside the point of Obama issuing a death warrant on an
American citizen who has not been tried or convicted.
This is what Bush ushered in. This is what the next President does with
the unconstitutional wars, policies and actions. Each time our liberties
are infringed it gets a little easier for the Next Guy.
Mayhaps he was convicted in absentia?

Bush's war wasn't "unconstittuional"--Bush used the avenue of asking
congress to fund an attack (if necessary)

Bush/Cheney should have been held accountable, and the GOP controlled
congress should have been held accountable for not revisiting that
authorization.

Trouble with your perception of government is that it's rooted in a
notion that "less government" is a better solution.

Been there, done that a century (or so) ago and it was a monumental
failure.

We needed "more government" (not necessarily bigger) to do it's job in
oversight and regulation of politicians who overstep their bounds.
Curly Surmudgeon
2010-05-20 06:23:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
On Wed, 19 May 2010 05:39:03 +0000 (UTC), Curly Surmudgeon
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
All true but beside the point of Obama issuing a death warrant on an
American citizen who has not been tried or convicted.
This is what Bush ushered in. This is what the next President does with
the unconstitutional wars, policies and actions. Each time our
liberties are infringed it gets a little easier for the Next Guy.
Mayhaps he was convicted in absentia?
Show a cite.
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
Bush's war wasn't "unconstittuional"--Bush used the avenue of asking
congress to fund an attack (if necessary)
Of course it was unconstitutional, there has been no ratification by
Congress. Read the Constitution, only Congress can declare war.
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
Bush/Cheney should have been held accountable, and the GOP controlled
congress should have been held accountable for not revisiting that
authorization.
And the Democrats (and independents) who voted Bush dictatorial power to
wage extra-Constitutional war.
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
Trouble with your perception of government is that it's rooted in a
notion that "less government" is a better solution.
Been there, done that a century (or so) ago and it was a monumental
failure.
We needed "more government" (not necessarily bigger) to do it's job in
oversight and regulation of politicians who overstep their bounds.
More government is what brought us to this crisis of ethical behavior.
--
Regards, Curly
Shall not be infringed
2010-05-20 12:22:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
We needed "more government" (not necessarily bigger) to do it's job in
oversight and regulation of politicians who overstep their bounds.
More government is what brought us to this crisis of ethical behavior.
We need a simpler mechanism to get rid bad senators and
representatives. They treat it as if being a senator is an
entitlement.
P***@Pajamas.com
2010-05-20 13:14:25 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 20 May 2010 05:22:46 -0700 (PDT), Shall not be infringed
Post by Shall not be infringed
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
More government is what brought us to this crisis of ethical behavior.
We need a simpler mechanism to get rid bad senators and
representatives. They treat it as if being a senator is an
entitlement.
THey are if they're elected.

What right do you have to tell ME that my politician is less deserving
than any you choose?
Shall not be infringed
2010-05-20 13:27:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
On Thu, 20 May 2010 05:22:46 -0700 (PDT), Shall not be infringed
Post by Shall not be infringed
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
More government is what brought us to this crisis of ethical behavior.
We need a simpler mechanism to get rid bad senators and
representatives.  They treat it as if being a senator is an
entitlement.
THey are if they're elected.
What right do you have to tell ME that my politician is less deserving
than any you choose?
He's my politician, too.

This is representative government, no?

We are a republic, no?
P***@Pajamas.com
2010-05-20 14:22:28 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 20 May 2010 06:27:28 -0700 (PDT), Shall not be infringed
Post by Shall not be infringed
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
Post by Shall not be infringed
We need a simpler mechanism to get rid bad senators and
representatives.  They treat it as if being a senator is an
entitlement.
THey are if they're elected.
What right do you have to tell ME that my politician is less deserving
than any you choose?
He's my politician, too.
Then don't elect yours. If you can't muster enough votes to defeat
him---stop whining.
Post by Shall not be infringed
This is representative government, no?
Then why would we "make it simpler"?
Post by Shall not be infringed
We are a republic, no?
And works just fine.
Shall not be infringed
2010-05-21 01:53:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
On Thu, 20 May 2010 06:27:28 -0700 (PDT), Shall not be infringed
Post by Shall not be infringed
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
Post by Shall not be infringed
We need a simpler mechanism to get rid bad senators and
representatives.  They treat it as if being a senator is an
entitlement.
THey are if they're elected.
What right do you have to tell ME that my politician is less deserving
than any you choose?
He's my politician, too.
Then don't elect yours.  If you can't muster enough votes to defeat
him---stop whining.
Whoever is elected is still my representative. And I demand to be
represented.
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
Post by Shall not be infringed
This is representative government, no?
Then why would we "make it simpler"?
Because they tell a lot of lies when they are in the campaign mode,
then reneg.
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
Post by Shall not be infringed
We are a republic, no?
And works just fine.
That's not what you guys were saying in 2000.
P***@Pajamas.com
2010-05-20 13:13:22 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 20 May 2010 06:23:34 +0000 (UTC), Curly Surmudgeon
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
Bush's war wasn't "unconstittuional"--Bush used the avenue of asking
congress to fund an attack (if necessary)
Of course it was unconstitutional, there has been no ratification by
Congress. Read the Constitution, only Congress can declare war.
Curley---that's a strictly loonytarian belief.

Simply was an unworkable system
Curly Surmudgeon
2010-05-20 14:10:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
On Thu, 20 May 2010 06:23:34 +0000 (UTC), Curly Surmudgeon
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
Bush's war wasn't "unconstittuional"--Bush used the avenue of asking
congress to fund an attack (if necessary)
Of course it was unconstitutional, there has been no ratification by
Congress. Read the Constitution, only Congress can declare war.
Curley---that's a strictly loonytarian belief.
If obeying the rule of law is looney then sign me up.
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
Simply was an unworkable system
Worked just fine for almost 200 years. See what disobeying the
Constitution has gotten us? Korea, Vietnam, Somalia, Iraq and
Afghanistan, an economic disaster of biblical proportions, civil strife,
massive unemployment and widespread violence for starters.
--
Regards, Curly
P***@Pajamas.com
2010-05-20 16:28:48 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 20 May 2010 14:10:35 +0000 (UTC), Curly Surmudgeon
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
On Thu, 20 May 2010 06:23:34 +0000 (UTC), Curly Surmudgeon
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
Bush's war wasn't "unconstittuional"--Bush used the avenue of asking
congress to fund an attack (if necessary)
Of course it was unconstitutional, there has been no ratification by
Congress. Read the Constitution, only Congress can declare war.
Curley---that's a strictly loonytarian belief.
If obeying the rule of law is looney then sign me up.
according to whose interpretation?
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
Simply was an unworkable system
Worked just fine for almost 200 years.
Yes, and in a rural, agrarian, pre-industrial/technological,
pre-massive immigraton America Curly.

The failures began to mount after the 1890's, socially, economically,
domestically.

By the first 1/3 of the 20th century---the nation was in finacial
collapse, society fractured, industry devastated.

AFTER the government got smart---we prospered.

Loonytarian crap was one of the reasons why we failed.
Curly Surmudgeon
2010-05-21 14:16:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
On Thu, 20 May 2010 14:10:35 +0000 (UTC), Curly Surmudgeon
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
On Thu, 20 May 2010 06:23:34 +0000 (UTC), Curly Surmudgeon
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
Bush's war wasn't "unconstittuional"--Bush used the avenue of asking
congress to fund an attack (if necessary)
Of course it was unconstitutional, there has been no ratification by
Congress. Read the Constitution, only Congress can declare war.
Curley---that's a strictly loonytarian belief.
If obeying the rule of law is looney then sign me up.
according to whose interpretation?
<Rodney Dangerfield>
EEEeeeeeevvvvvvvvvvvveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrryyyyyyyyyybbbbbbbbbbbbbbooooooooooooodddddddddddyyyyyy!
</Rodney Dangerfield>
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
Simply was an unworkable system
Worked just fine for almost 200 years.
Yes, and in a rural, agrarian, pre-industrial/technological, pre-massive
immigraton America Curly.
The failures began to mount after the 1890's, socially, economically,
domestically.
By the first 1/3 of the 20th century---the nation was in finacial
collapse, society fractured, industry devastated.
AFTER the government got smart---we prospered.
Loonytarian crap was one of the reasons why we failed.
You keep spouting that opinion without substantiation or definition.
Don't expect an argument over undefinable opinion.
--
Regards, Curly
S***@old.com
2010-05-21 14:25:06 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 21 May 2010 14:16:18 +0000 (UTC), Curly Surmudgeon
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
Loonytarian crap was one of the reasons why we failed.
You keep spouting that opinion without substantiation or definition.
Other than the historical record?

What more do you want?
Curly Surmudgeon
2010-05-21 23:50:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by S***@old.com
On Fri, 21 May 2010 14:16:18 +0000 (UTC), Curly Surmudgeon
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
Loonytarian crap was one of the reasons why we failed.
You keep spouting that opinion without substantiation or definition.
Other than the historical record?
What more do you want?
A definition and logic trail coupling the two would be nice.
--
Regards, Curly
S***@gruber.com
2010-05-22 04:10:54 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 21 May 2010 23:50:48 +0000 (UTC), Curly Surmudgeon
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Post by S***@old.com
What more do you want?
A definition and logic trail coupling the two would be nice.
"less government"---Monopolies

"less government"---Unsafe products

"less government"---Unsafe work conditions

"less government"--slave wages, exploitation

"less government"--Disease, unsafe food, water, enviornment

"less government"---Tenements, near-slavery

"less government"--Discrimination, civil rights abuse

"less government"--wealth and power rampant abuse of people

Etc, etc, etc.

The only good thing you MIGHT say about loonytarian bullshit was that
when businesses were allowed unrestricted business practices---that
"empires" were built irrespective of the massive social harm it
eventually caused resulting in innovation that MIGHT not have happened
if regulated more stringently.
Curly Surmudgeon
2010-05-22 17:59:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by S***@gruber.com
On Fri, 21 May 2010 23:50:48 +0000 (UTC), Curly Surmudgeon
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Post by S***@old.com
What more do you want?
A definition and logic trail coupling the two would be nice.
"less government"---Monopolies
No logic trail there.
Post by S***@gruber.com
"less government"---Unsafe products
More than we currently have?
Post by S***@gruber.com
"less government"---Unsafe work conditions
Define "government". Less of the same? Yeah, you're probably right.
More of the same isn't going to help much either. A *different*
government doesn't require the waste of manpowerk inefficiency or
corruption you advocate.
Post by S***@gruber.com
"less government"--slave wages, exploitation
No logic trail there.
Post by S***@gruber.com
"less government"--Disease, unsafe food, water, enviornment
You think Tyson and other unsafe food producers could survive without
governmental aided monopolies?
Post by S***@gruber.com
"less government"---Tenements, near-slavery
No logic trail there.
Post by S***@gruber.com
"less government"--Discrimination, civil rights abuse
Intolerable conditions but less government doesn't mandate that.
Post by S***@gruber.com
"less government"--wealth and power rampant abuse of people
Etc, etc, etc.
The only good thing you MIGHT say about loonytarian bullshit was that
when businesses were allowed unrestricted business practices---that
"empires" were built irrespective of the massive social harm it
eventually caused resulting in innovation that MIGHT not have happened
if regulated more stringently.
You equate less of today's government as lower performing protections. I
do not and you've not shown the logic trail that proves your position.
--
Regards, Curly
Shall not be infringed
2010-05-17 11:24:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by PrecisionmachinisT
Punishment without trial doesn't go from being okay under Bush to
being unacceptable under Obama.
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Osama won.
No, Bush failed.
Failed to do what?  Increase his political donations by 10 times per
donor?  Refuse to hire any key staff members with unpaid taxes?  Refused
to bend over for liberals?  Refused to kiss any Muslim ass?
All things Obama is famous for.
Post by PrecisionmachinisT
But Obama has 6+ years left in which to reverse the damage.
Yeah, Obama makes jokes too.  If Obama lives out this term, he'll never
see another.
NAFTA baby.  When Clinton signed it the writing was on the wall for this
financial collapse.
Rush Limbaugh was a NAFTA advocate.
unknown
2010-05-17 12:15:39 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 17 May 2010 04:24:31 -0700 (PDT), Shall always be inhinged
Post by Shall not be infringed
Post by PrecisionmachinisT
Punishment without trial doesn't go from being okay under Bush to
being unacceptable under Obama.
... Bush failed.
... what?  ...
Post by PrecisionmachinisT
But Obama has 6+ years left in which to reverse the damage.
Yeah, Obama ...
NAFTA baby.  When Clinton signed it the writing was on the wall for this
financial collapse.
Rush Limbaugh was a NAFTA advocate.
Borders are for sissies.
P***@Pajamas.com
2010-05-17 14:49:15 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 17 May 2010 04:24:31 -0700 (PDT), Shall not be infringed
Post by Shall not be infringed
NAFTA baby.  When Clinton signed it the writing was on the wall for this
financial collapse.
Rush Limbaugh was a NAFTA advocate.
Sure

Limpballs entertains the conservative crowd---a demographic of
moderately wealthy rightwingers.
Shall not be infringed
2010-05-20 01:31:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
On Mon, 17 May 2010 04:24:31 -0700 (PDT), Shall not be infringed
Post by Shall not be infringed
NAFTA baby.  When Clinton signed it the writing was on the wall for this
financial collapse.
Rush Limbaugh was a NAFTA advocate.
Sure
Limpballs entertains the conservative crowd---a demographic of
moderately wealthy rightwingers.
People that work for a living?
Iarnrod
2010-05-20 03:22:34 UTC
Permalink
On May 19, 7:31 pm, Shall not be infringed <hot-ham-and-
Post by Shall not be infringed
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
On Mon, 17 May 2010 04:24:31 -0700 (PDT), Shall not be infringed
Post by Shall not be infringed
NAFTA baby.  When Clinton signed it the writing was on the wall for this
financial collapse.
Rush Limbaugh was a NAFTA advocate.
Sure
Limpballs entertains the conservative crowd---a demographic of
moderately wealthy rightwingers.
People that work for a living?
No, freeloading leeches, which make up most Republican/bagger rallies.
They are not working people.
Shall not be infringed
2010-05-20 12:24:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Iarnrod
On May 19, 7:31 pm, Shall not be infringed <hot-ham-and-
Post by Shall not be infringed
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
On Mon, 17 May 2010 04:24:31 -0700 (PDT), Shall not be infringed
Post by Shall not be infringed
NAFTA baby.  When Clinton signed it the writing was on the wall for this
financial collapse.
Rush Limbaugh was a NAFTA advocate.
Sure
Limpballs entertains the conservative crowd---a demographic of
moderately wealthy rightwingers.
People that work for a living?
No, freeloading leeches, which make up most Republican/bagger rallies.
They are not working people.
Heh. Lame rod, you're not only a liar, but you're stupid, too.
P***@Pajamas.com
2010-05-20 13:16:02 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 20 May 2010 05:24:02 -0700 (PDT), Shall not be infringed
Post by Shall not be infringed
Post by Iarnrod
On May 19, 7:31 pm, Shall not be infringed <hot-ham-and-
Post by Shall not be infringed
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
On Mon, 17 May 2010 04:24:31 -0700 (PDT), Shall not be infringed
Post by Shall not be infringed
NAFTA baby.  When Clinton signed it the writing was on the wall for this
financial collapse.
Rush Limbaugh was a NAFTA advocate.
Sure
Limpballs entertains the conservative crowd---a demographic of
moderately wealthy rightwingers.
People that work for a living?
No, freeloading leeches, which make up most Republican/bagger rallies.
They are not working people.
Heh. Lame rod, you're not only a liar, but you're stupid, too.
Tea whackoffs are a joke

Instead of having one nut-job in the House railing and babbling---now
we might have two nuts from the same tree---in the House and Senate.
Shall not be infringed
2010-05-20 13:29:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
On Thu, 20 May 2010 05:24:02 -0700 (PDT), Shall not be infringed
Post by Iarnrod
On May 19, 7:31 pm, Shall not be infringed <hot-ham-and-
Post by Shall not be infringed
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
On Mon, 17 May 2010 04:24:31 -0700 (PDT), Shall not be infringed
Post by Shall not be infringed
NAFTA baby.  When Clinton signed it the writing was on the wall for this
financial collapse.
Rush Limbaugh was a NAFTA advocate.
Sure
Limpballs entertains the conservative crowd---a demographic of
moderately wealthy rightwingers.
People that work for a living?
No, freeloading leeches, which make up most Republican/bagger rallies.
They are not working people.
Heh.  Lame rod, you're not only a liar, but you're stupid, too.
Tea whackoffs are a joke
Instead of having one nut-job in the House railing and babbling---now
we might have two nuts from the same tree---in the House and Senate.
They are only related by blood.

And don't forget that the older one (the republican) was Cur-Lee's
presidential choice.
P***@Pajamas.com
2010-05-20 14:23:33 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 20 May 2010 06:29:13 -0700 (PDT), Shall not be infringed
Post by Shall not be infringed
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
Instead of having one nut-job in the House railing and babbling---now
we might have two nuts from the same tree---in the House and Senate.
They are only related by blood.
And don't forget that the older one (the republican) was Cur-Lee's
presidential choice.
Curley is pretty much right most of the time

Except for his self-defeating belief that the old ways of loonytarian
crap was a good thing.
Shall not be infringed
2010-05-20 18:22:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
On Thu, 20 May 2010 06:29:13 -0700 (PDT), Shall not be infringed
Post by Shall not be infringed
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
Instead of having one nut-job in the House railing and babbling---now
we might have two nuts from the same tree---in the House and Senate.
They are only related by blood.
And don't forget that the older one (the republican) was Cur-Lee's
presidential choice.
Curley is pretty much right most of the time
Then time must be wrong. Have you been watching those Steven Hawking
programs again?
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
Except for his self-defeating belief that the old ways of loonytarian
crap was a good thing.
He says that the earth's climate is a closed system. He's shown a
distinct lack of knowledge of percentages and ratios. He flies the
Dresden Flag in California. He flips houses for a living and insists
that we pay for his health care because he can't participate in an
employer/employee program.
Curly Surmudgeon
2010-05-21 14:18:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
On Thu, 20 May 2010 06:29:13 -0700 (PDT), Shall not be infringed
Post by Shall not be infringed
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
Instead of having one nut-job in the House railing and babbling---now
we might have two nuts from the same tree---in the House and Senate.
They are only related by blood.
And don't forget that the older one (the republican) was Cur-Lee's
presidential choice.
Curley is pretty much right most of the time
Except for his self-defeating belief that the old ways of loonytarian
crap was a good thing.
Am I still stalking the cockroach?
--
Regards, Curly
Iarnrod
2010-05-21 02:51:56 UTC
Permalink
On May 20, 6:24 am, Shall not be infringed <hot-ham-and-
Post by Iarnrod
On May 19, 7:31 pm, Shall not be infringed <hot-ham-and-
Post by Shall not be infringed
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
On Mon, 17 May 2010 04:24:31 -0700 (PDT), Shall not be infringed
Post by Shall not be infringed
NAFTA baby.  When Clinton signed it the writing was on the wall for this
financial collapse.
Rush Limbaugh was a NAFTA advocate.
Sure
Limpballs entertains the conservative crowd---a demographic of
moderately wealthy rightwingers.
People that work for a living?
No, freeloading leeches, which make up most Republican/bagger rallies.
They are not working people.
Heh.  Lame rod, you're not only a liar, but you're stupid, too.
Projection of course from you, an America-hating traitor. It must
really gall the shit out of you that Obama and the Dems have rescued
the country from the abyss of disaster where you morons led her.
unknown
2010-05-21 03:35:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Iarnrod
Projection of course from you, an America-hating traitor. It must
really gall the shit out of you that Obama and the Dems have rescued
the country from the abyss of disaster where you morons led her.
Like the alcoholic in denial, conservatives aren't capable of grasping
the concept that their entire idealogy is based on greed and deceit
and their actions and policies are the worst thing possible for anyone
in this country except for the ultra rich.
Shall not be infringed
2010-05-21 10:56:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
Post by Iarnrod
Projection of course from you, an America-hating traitor. It must
really gall the shit out of you that Obama and the Dems have rescued
the country from the abyss of disaster where you morons led her.
Like the alcoholic in denial, conservatives aren't capable of grasping
the concept that their entire idealogy is based on greed and deceit
and their actions and policies are the worst thing possible for anyone
in this country except for the ultra rich.
I'm so glad you two found each other.
S***@old.com
2010-05-21 14:22:29 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 21 May 2010 03:56:29 -0700 (PDT), Shall not be infringed
Post by Shall not be infringed
Post by unknown
Like the alcoholic in denial, conservatives aren't capable of grasping
the concept that their entire idealogy is based on greed and deceit
and their actions and policies are the worst thing possible for anyone
in this country except for the ultra rich.
I'm so glad you two found each other.
I'm glad you agree with what he said.....
Shall not be infringed
2010-05-22 00:16:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by S***@old.com
On Fri, 21 May 2010 03:56:29 -0700 (PDT), Shall not be infringed
Post by Shall not be infringed
Post by unknown
Like the alcoholic in denial, conservatives aren't capable of grasping
the concept that their entire idealogy is based on greed and deceit
and their actions and policies are the worst thing possible for anyone
in this country except for the ultra rich.
I'm so glad you two found each other.
I'm glad you agree with what he said.....
He said he loved you?
Iarnrod
2010-05-22 01:57:21 UTC
Permalink
On May 21, 4:56 am, Shall not be infringed <hot-ham-and-
Post by Shall not be infringed
Post by unknown
Post by Iarnrod
Projection of course from you, an America-hating traitor. It must
really gall the shit out of you that Obama and the Dems have rescued
the country from the abyss of disaster where you morons led her.
Like the alcoholic in denial, conservatives aren't capable of grasping
the concept that their entire idealogy is based on greed and deceit
and their actions and policies are the worst thing possible for anyone
in this country except for the ultra rich.
I'm so glad you two found each other.
Maybe we can help you better then, since you're obviously a severely
retarded kook.
Shall not be infringed
2010-05-21 10:56:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Iarnrod
On May 20, 6:24 am, Shall not be infringed <hot-ham-and-
Post by Iarnrod
On May 19, 7:31 pm, Shall not be infringed <hot-ham-and-
Post by Shall not be infringed
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
On Mon, 17 May 2010 04:24:31 -0700 (PDT), Shall not be infringed
Post by Shall not be infringed
NAFTA baby.  When Clinton signed it the writing was on the wall for this
financial collapse.
Rush Limbaugh was a NAFTA advocate.
Sure
Limpballs entertains the conservative crowd---a demographic of
moderately wealthy rightwingers.
People that work for a living?
No, freeloading leeches, which make up most Republican/bagger rallies.
They are not working people.
Heh.  Lame rod, you're not only a liar, but you're stupid, too.
Projection of course from you, an America-hating traitor. It must
really gall the shit out of you that Obama and the Dems have rescued
the country from the abyss of disaster where you morons led her.
Throwing a cement block to a drowning victim is now called rescuing?
pyotr filipivich
2010-05-21 14:56:33 UTC
Permalink
I missed the Staff Meeting but the Minutes record that Shall not be
Post by Shall not be infringed
Post by Iarnrod
On May 20, 6:24 am, Shall not be infringed <hot-ham-and-
Post by Iarnrod
On May 19, 7:31 pm, Shall not be infringed <hot-ham-and-
Post by Shall not be infringed
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
On Mon, 17 May 2010 04:24:31 -0700 (PDT), Shall not be infringed
Post by Shall not be infringed
NAFTA baby.  When Clinton signed it the writing was on the wall for this
financial collapse.
Rush Limbaugh was a NAFTA advocate.
Sure
Limpballs entertains the conservative crowd---a demographic of
moderately wealthy rightwingers.
People that work for a living?
No, freeloading leeches, which make up most Republican/bagger rallies.
They are not working people.
Heh.  Lame rod, you're not only a liar, but you're stupid, too.
Projection of course from you, an America-hating traitor. It must
really gall the shit out of you that Obama and the Dems have rescued
the country from the abyss of disaster where you morons led her.
Throwing a cement block to a drowning victim is now called rescuing?
In Progressivism "rescuing the country" means making everything
tidy, organized and well-regulated (and we all know that means, for
them, lots of Government oversight). That other countries which have
adopted progressive ideas have failed to thrive before they crashed
and burned, merely goes to show the failure of their leadership, not
that the ideas are in error.


pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich.
Just about the time you finally see light at the end of the tunnel,
you find out it's a Government Project to build more tunnel.
First Post
2010-05-21 16:10:45 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 21 May 2010 07:56:33 -0700, pyotr filipivich
Post by pyotr filipivich
I missed the Staff Meeting but the Minutes record that Shall not be
Post by Shall not be infringed
Post by Iarnrod
On May 20, 6:24 am, Shall not be infringed <hot-ham-and-
Post by Iarnrod
On May 19, 7:31 pm, Shall not be infringed <hot-ham-and-
Post by Shall not be infringed
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
On Mon, 17 May 2010 04:24:31 -0700 (PDT), Shall not be infringed
Post by Shall not be infringed
NAFTA baby.  When Clinton signed it the writing was on the wall for this
financial collapse.
Rush Limbaugh was a NAFTA advocate.
Sure
Limpballs entertains the conservative crowd---a demographic of
moderately wealthy rightwingers.
People that work for a living?
No, freeloading leeches, which make up most Republican/bagger rallies.
They are not working people.
Heh.  Lame rod, you're not only a liar, but you're stupid, too.
Projection of course from you, an America-hating traitor. It must
really gall the shit out of you that Obama and the Dems have rescued
the country from the abyss of disaster where you morons led her.
Throwing a cement block to a drowning victim is now called rescuing?
In Progressivism "rescuing the country" means making everything
tidy, organized and well-regulated (and we all know that means, for
them, lots of Government oversight). That other countries which have
adopted progressive ideas have failed to thrive before they crashed
and burned, merely goes to show the failure of their leadership, not
that the ideas are in error.
pyotr
I ideology is in error as well. Human nature is to always want
better.
Progressives want everyone to be equally poor and subserviant to
government, except for the ruling class.
In a free society there is no social equality as there will always be
over and under achievers. Social equality is not accomlished by
lifting anyone up. It is typically accomplished by pulling people
down. Thus it is a concept destined for failure as it has failed
virtually everytime it is tried.
S***@old.com
2010-05-21 19:21:27 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 21 May 2010 07:56:33 -0700, pyotr filipivich
Post by pyotr filipivich
In Progressivism "rescuing the country" means making everything
tidy, organized and well-regulated (and we all know that means, for
them, lots of Government oversight).
also stopped huge monopolies, child labor, dangerous work places, fair
labor standards, product safety, collective bargaining, civil rights,
equal rights, womens rights, childrens rights, aided the eldery and
sick, homeless and hungry

Conservative/loonytarian record----ZERO
Curly Surmudgeon
2010-05-21 23:52:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by First Post
On Fri, 21 May 2010 07:56:33 -0700, pyotr filipivich
Post by pyotr filipivich
In Progressivism "rescuing the country" means making everything
tidy, organized and well-regulated (and we all know that means, for
them, lots of Government oversight).
also stopped huge monopolies, child labor, dangerous work places, fair
labor standards, product safety, collective bargaining, civil rights,
equal rights, womens rights, childrens rights, aided the eldery and
sick, homeless and hungry
Conservative/loonytarian record----ZERO
If you are referring to libertarianism then coupling it with today's
"conservatives" violates the foundation of both.
--
Regards, Curly
S***@gruber.com
2010-05-22 04:14:55 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 21 May 2010 23:52:35 +0000 (UTC), Curly Surmudgeon
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Post by First Post
On Fri, 21 May 2010 07:56:33 -0700, pyotr filipivich
Post by pyotr filipivich
In Progressivism "rescuing the country" means making everything
tidy, organized and well-regulated (and we all know that means, for
them, lots of Government oversight).
also stopped huge monopolies, child labor, dangerous work places, fair
labor standards, product safety, collective bargaining, civil rights,
equal rights, womens rights, childrens rights, aided the eldery and
sick, homeless and hungry
Conservative/loonytarian record----ZERO
If you are referring to libertarianism then coupling it with today's
"conservatives" violates the foundation of both.
I don't give a shit whether you "couple it" or not, Curley

The model of loonytarian government was a monumental failure
excerbatged by the industrial revolution, westward expansion and the
millions of 19th century immigration.

By the turn of the century---the urban centers were dismal, exploited,
sick, and disease ridden

There was a reason why this nation eyed socialism/communism around
that time---not because it was good on it's merits---but because the
conditions in this nation were so bad---and the reason was LACK OF
GOVERNMENT
Curly Surmudgeon
2010-05-22 17:53:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by S***@gruber.com
On Fri, 21 May 2010 23:52:35 +0000 (UTC), Curly Surmudgeon
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Post by First Post
On Fri, 21 May 2010 07:56:33 -0700, pyotr filipivich
Post by pyotr filipivich
In Progressivism "rescuing the country" means making everything
tidy, organized and well-regulated (and we all know that means, for
them, lots of Government oversight).
also stopped huge monopolies, child labor, dangerous work places, fair
labor standards, product safety, collective bargaining, civil rights,
equal rights, womens rights, childrens rights, aided the eldery and
sick, homeless and hungry
Conservative/loonytarian record----ZERO
If you are referring to libertarianism then coupling it with today's
"conservatives" violates the foundation of both.
I don't give a shit whether you "couple it" or not, Curley
The model of loonytarian government was a monumental failure excerbatged
by the industrial revolution, westward expansion and the millions of
19th century immigration.
By the turn of the century---the urban centers were dismal, exploited,
sick, and disease ridden
There was a reason why this nation eyed socialism/communism around that
time---not because it was good on it's merits---but because the
conditions in this nation were so bad---and the reason was LACK OF
GOVERNMENT
I will not engage in defending straw men. Define your terms into common
English.
--
Regards, Curly
Iarnrod
2010-05-22 01:59:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by pyotr filipivich
I missed the Staff Meeting but the Minutes record that Shall not be
Post by Shall not be infringed
Post by Iarnrod
On May 20, 6:24 am, Shall not be infringed <hot-ham-and-
Post by Iarnrod
On May 19, 7:31 pm, Shall not be infringed <hot-ham-and-
Post by Shall not be infringed
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
On Mon, 17 May 2010 04:24:31 -0700 (PDT), Shall not be infringed
Post by Shall not be infringed
NAFTA baby.  When Clinton signed it the writing was on the wall for this
financial collapse.
Rush Limbaugh was a NAFTA advocate.
Sure
Limpballs entertains the conservative crowd---a demographic of
moderately wealthy rightwingers.
People that work for a living?
No, freeloading leeches, which make up most Republican/bagger rallies.
They are not working people.
Heh.  Lame rod, you're not only a liar, but you're stupid, too.
Projection of course from you, an America-hating traitor. It must
really gall the shit out of you that Obama and the Dems have rescued
the country from the abyss of disaster where you morons led her.
Throwing a cement block to a drowning victim is now called rescuing?
        In Progressivism "rescuing the country" means making everything
tidy, organized and well-regulated (and we all know that means, for
them, lots of Government oversight).   That other countries which have
adopted progressive ideas have failed to thrive before they crashed
and burned, merely goes to show the failure of their leadership, not
that the ideas are  in error.
pyotr
Stop using drugs, kook.
Iarnrod
2010-05-22 01:58:33 UTC
Permalink
On May 21, 4:56 am, Shall not be infringed <hot-ham-and-
Post by Shall not be infringed
Post by Iarnrod
On May 20, 6:24 am, Shall not be infringed <hot-ham-and-
Post by Iarnrod
On May 19, 7:31 pm, Shall not be infringed <hot-ham-and-
Post by Shall not be infringed
Post by P***@Pajamas.com
On Mon, 17 May 2010 04:24:31 -0700 (PDT), Shall not be infringed
Post by Shall not be infringed
NAFTA baby.  When Clinton signed it the writing was on the wall for this
financial collapse.
Rush Limbaugh was a NAFTA advocate.
Sure
Limpballs entertains the conservative crowd---a demographic of
moderately wealthy rightwingers.
People that work for a living?
No, freeloading leeches, which make up most Republican/bagger rallies.
They are not working people.
Heh.  Lame rod, you're not only a liar, but you're stupid, too.
Projection of course from you, an America-hating traitor. It must
really gall the shit out of you that Obama and the Dems have rescued
the country from the abyss of disaster where you morons led her.
Throwing a cement block to a drowning victim is now called rescuing?
No. But of course we got rid of the cement blocks when we voted out
all restupidcans.

Voting republican in 2010 would be like inviting back the arsonists
who set your house ablaze because the firefighters haven't put it out
completely yet. Pure stupidity. It won't happen.
Buster Norris
2010-05-21 03:46:56 UTC
Permalink
I'm near Atlanta, you faggot.
"Faggot!" BWAHAHAHAAAAHAHAAA! It's quite impossible for me to be a "faggot,"
You're a fat ugly woman!!!!!!!!!!!
Well, you got the last word correct
"Iarnrod" admits she's a fat ugly broad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PrecisionmachinisT
2010-05-18 15:30:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by * US *
Post by PrecisionmachinisT
Punishment without trial doesn't go from being okay under Bush to
being unacceptable under Obama.
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Osama won.
No, Bush failed.
Failed to do what?
Very short list :

Failed to keep us safe from terrorism. ( SEE 9/11 )

Failed to bring in Osama Bin Laden dead or alive.

Failed to find any WMD's in IraQ
Post by * US *
Increase his political donations by 10 times per
donor?
Big fucking deal--it's a fact of life.the more popular candidate typically
recieves more donations
Post by * US *
Refuse to hire any key staff members with unpaid taxes?
Agreed--he should have personally checked the tax returns of any and all
proposed staff members.
Post by * US *
Refused to bend over for liberals?
Pretty sure the word "liberal" does not mean what you think it means--hang
on a sec I'll check....

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/liberal

Yup, just as I thought....
Post by * US *
Refused to kiss any Muslim ass?
Is not religious intolerance a major contributer to the problems the world
faces today ?
Post by * US *
All things Obama is famous for.
Here are a few things he is even more famous for :

On the environment, Obama:

a.. Included funding for "green" jobs in the stimulus bill


b.. Initiated first steps to develop a legally-binding treaty to reduce
mercury emissions worldwide


c.. Dedicated more than $60 billion for clean energy


d.. Instituted "cash for clunkers," getting more fuel efficient cars on
the street


e.. Acknowledges reality of climate change and his desire to work on an
international policy like Kyoto


f.. Emphasized the value of science (not political opinion) within the EPA


g.. Allocated $2 billion in stimulus cash for advanced batteries systems
(for automobiles)


h.. Declared (via EPA) carbon dioxide a threat to health, the first step
towards regulating greenhouse gases under the Clean Air Act


i.. Funded Energy Efficiency and Conservation Block Grant, which gives
$2.8 billion to cities


j.. Put over 2 million acres of wilderness, thousands of miles of river
and a host of national trails and parks under federal protection, the
largest conservation effort in 15 years


k.. Funding a $475 million initiative to restore and clean the Great Lakes


On healthcare, Obama:


a.. Overturned the federal funding ban for stem cell research


b.. Instituted better standards for comparative research in medicine and
an agency to handle this


c.. Added staff to the FDA and brought back emphasis on science


d.. Allocated over $1 billion to the National Institutes of Health, whose
budget Bush let stagnate


e.. Eliminated funding for abstinence-only education


f.. Signed an executive order repealing the "Mexico City policy" or
"global gag rule" that withheld U.S. funds from organizations that discuss
or provide family planning services abroad


g.. Announced US would resume contributions to the UN population fund for
family planning and more than double the previous contribution made in 2001


h.. Appropriated $19 billion in the stimulus package to help implement an
electronic medical record system


i.. Set aside billions in budget to overhaul the health care system


j.. Enacted Children's Health Insurance Program Reauthorization, providing
healthcare to 11 million children


k.. Established 65% COBRA subsidy for 7 million unemployed Americans


l.. Allocated $1 billion for prevention and wellness programs


m.. Provided $87 billion to states to bolster their Medicaid programs
during the downturn


n.. Increased funding for urban HIV/AIDS Prevention and Awareness


On Education, Equality, Public Safety, Families, etc. Obama :


a.. Expressed a desire to overturn Don't Ask Don't Tell


b.. Described the Defense of Marriage Act as "unfair" and "discriminatory"
and said they supported it being overturned


c.. Includes atheists in his definition of Americans


d.. Extended tax credits for mothers to return to college, for tuition,
and for college textbook purchases


e.. Has agreed to make the visitors' lists to the White House public


f.. Signed executive order requiring Guantanamo to be closed within 1 year
and allocated funds/personnel for that purpose


g.. Included provision in stimulus legislation that, for the first time,
supported the ideas of Net Neutrality-like non-discrimination and openness
for the Internet


h.. The administration demonstrated a new commitment to fighting for
change on the UN Human Rights Council by announcing it will run for a seat
next year, reversing the Bush administration boycott


i.. Announced that the U.S. will support a United Nations declaration
urging nations to decriminalize homosexuality


j.. Created office of Urban Policy


k.. Gave Department of Justice $2 billion for Byrne Grants, which funds
anti-gang and anti-gun task forces (cut during Bush years)


l.. Allocated $5 billion for early learning programs, including Head
Start, Early Head Start, child care, and programs for children with special
needs


m.. Signed the Credit Card Accountability, Responsibility, and Disclosure
(CARD) Act to protect Americans from unfair and deceptive credit card
practices


n.. Enacted the Making Homes Affordable Program


o.. Boosted credit flow to small businesses


p.. Increased focus on funding for high speed rail


q.. Funded the Community Oriented Police program (COPS)


r.. Appointed first Hispanic justice to the Supreme Court and most
qualified Supreme Court candidate in decades


On foreign affairs, he :


a.. Secured $5 billion in aid commitments "to bolster [Pakistan's] economy
and help it fight terror and Islamic radicalism"


b.. Foreign affairs experts insist that Obama's engagement with the Muslim
world has been at once remarkable and under-appreciated..."He has been able
to dramatically change America's image in that region"


c.. Led global response to the economic crisis through the G20, obtaining
commitments of $1.1 trillion to safeguard the world's most vulnerable
economies


d.. Established major agenda to protect Americans from spread/use of
deadly weapons, negotiating new nuclear weapon cuts with Russia and
committing to the elimination of nuclear weapons


e.. Signed an executive order banning torture and requiring interrogations
to conform to Army Field Manual Standards and Geneva Conventions


f.. Signed an executive order to close CIA secret prisons


g.. Cut ineffective, unnecessary and outdated weapons programs such as the
F-22, the DDG -1000 destroyer, and Future Combat Systems


h.. Vowed to bring the costs of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq into the
regular budget by 2010


i.. Largest increase for veterans funding in 30 years


j.. Restored the UN Ambassador to a cabinet level position


k.. Signed Weapons Systems Acquisition Reform Act to stop fraud and
wasteful spending in defense procurement and contracting


l.. Helped free 2 American journalists from a North Korea prison


m.. Led the UN Security Council in voting for strong sanctions against
North Korea


n.. Negotiated with Russia to allow overflights over their territory to
establish a supply route into Northern Afghanistan


In the workplace, Obama has:


a.. Reversed anti-worker actions. OSHA announced it was moving to protect
workers from popcorn lung; a serious lung disease caused by diacetyl, the
artificial butter flavoring added to popcorn and other food products. In
recent years, hundreds of workers in plants where diacetyl is produced or
applied to food have developed the rare and sometimes fatal disease,
bronchiolitis obliterans, also known as "popcorn lung." Technically, OSHA
withdrew a last-minute advance notice of proposed rule making issued by the
outgoing Bush administration that could have added two years to the
standard-setting process.


b.. Revoked Bush administration executive order on regulatory review that
enabled political appointees at the White House's OMB to override agencies'
rulemaking, undermining everything from worker safety to environmental
protection


c.. Signed 3 executive orders, including one reversing a Bush order to
limit union representation on federal contracts


d.. Moved to prevent federal contractors from being reimbursed for
unionbusting propganda compaigns during collective bargaining


e.. Signed executive order overturning Bush administration's ban on
project labor agreements (PLAs) on federally funded construction (PLAs set
wages and establish work rules and methods of settling grievances on large
multi-contractor construction projects)


f.. Signed the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act, guaranteeing the right to sue
for wage discrimination based on gender, race, disability, etc.


g.. Extended unemployment benefits for struggling Americans


h.. Obama's Department of Transportation has approved 2,500 highway
projects


i.. Cut taxes for 95% of all working families


j.. Provided over $500 million in funding for vocational rehabilitation
services to help with job training, education and placement
Post by * US *
Post by PrecisionmachinisT
But Obama has 6+ years left in which to reverse the damage.
Yeah, Obama makes jokes too. If Obama lives out this term, he'll never
see another.
Well since you have your chrystal ball out, appreciate tell me who is going
to win next years world series ?
Post by * US *
NAFTA baby. When Clinton signed it the writing was on the wall for this
financial collapse.
" in the U.S., Bush, who had worked to "fast track" the signing prior to the
end of his term, ran out of time and had to pass the required ratification
and signing into law to incoming president Bill Clinton. Prior to sending it
to the House of Representatives, Clinton introduced clauses to protect
American workers and allay the concerns of many House members. It also
required U.S. partners to adhere to environmental practices and regulations
similar to its own. The ability to enforce these clauses, especially with
Mexico, and with much consideration and emotional discussion the House of
Representatives approved NAFTA on November 17, 1993, by a vote of 234 to
200. The agreement's supporters included 132 Republicans and 102 Democrats.
"

--
unknown
2010-05-19 02:05:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by PrecisionmachinisT
Post by * US *
Failed to do what?
Failed to keep us safe from terrorism. ( SEE 9/11 )
Failed to bring in Osama Bin Laden dead or alive.
Failed to find any WMD's in IraQ
Post by * US *
Increase his political donations by 10 times per
donor?
Big fucking deal--it's a fact of life.the more popular candidate typically
receives more donations
Post by * US *
Refuse to hire any key staff members with unpaid taxes?
Agreed--he should have personally checked the tax returns of any and all
proposed staff members.
Post by * US *
Refused to bend over for liberals?
Pretty sure the word "liberal" does not mean what you think it means--hang
on a sec I'll check....
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/liberal
Yup, just as I thought....
Post by * US *
Refused to kiss any Muslim ass?
Is not religious intolerance a major contributer to the problems the world
faces today ?
Post by * US *
All things Obama is famous for.
a.. Included funding for "green" jobs in the stimulus bill
b.. Initiated first steps to develop a legally-binding treaty to reduce
mercury emissions worldwide
c.. Dedicated more than $60 billion for clean energy
d.. Instituted "cash for clunkers," getting more fuel efficient cars on
the street
e.. Acknowledges reality of climate change and his desire to work on an
international policy like Kyoto
f.. Emphasized the value of science (not political opinion) within the EPA
g.. Allocated $2 billion in stimulus cash for advanced batteries systems
(for automobiles)
h.. Declared (via EPA) carbon dioxide a threat to health, the first step
towards regulating greenhouse gases under the Clean Air Act
i.. Funded Energy Efficiency and Conservation Block Grant, which gives
$2.8 billion to cities
j.. Put over 2 million acres of wilderness, thousands of miles of river
and a host of national trails and parks under federal protection, the
largest conservation effort in 15 years
k.. Funding a $475 million initiative to restore and clean the Great Lakes
a.. Overturned the federal funding ban for stem cell research
b.. Instituted better standards for comparative research in medicine and
an agency to handle this
c.. Added staff to the FDA and brought back emphasis on science
d.. Allocated over $1 billion to the National Institutes of Health, whose
budget Bush let stagnate
e.. Eliminated funding for abstinence-only education
f.. Signed an executive order repealing the "Mexico City policy" or
"global gag rule" that withheld U.S. funds from organizations that discuss
or provide family planning services abroad
g.. Announced US would resume contributions to the UN population fund for
family planning and more than double the previous contribution made in 2001
h.. Appropriated $19 billion in the stimulus package to help implement an
electronic medical record system
i.. Set aside billions in budget to overhaul the health care system
j.. Enacted Children's Health Insurance Program Reauthorization, providing
healthcare to 11 million children
k.. Established 65% COBRA subsidy for 7 million unemployed Americans
l.. Allocated $1 billion for prevention and wellness programs
m.. Provided $87 billion to states to bolster their Medicaid programs
during the downturn
n.. Increased funding for urban HIV/AIDS Prevention and Awareness
a.. Expressed a desire to overturn Don't Ask Don't Tell
b.. Described the Defense of Marriage Act as "unfair" and "discriminatory"
and said they supported it being overturned
c.. Includes atheists in his definition of Americans
d.. Extended tax credits for mothers to return to college, for tuition,
and for college textbook purchases
e.. Has agreed to make the visitors' lists to the White House public
f.. Signed executive order requiring Guantanamo to be closed within 1 year
and allocated funds/personnel for that purpose
g.. Included provision in stimulus legislation that, for the first time,
supported the ideas of Net Neutrality-like non-discrimination and openness
for the Internet
h.. The administration demonstrated a new commitment to fighting for
change on the UN Human Rights Council by announcing it will run for a seat
next year, reversing the Bush administration boycott
i.. Announced that the U.S. will support a United Nations declaration
urging nations to decriminalize homosexuality
j.. Created office of Urban Policy
k.. Gave Department of Justice $2 billion for Byrne Grants, which funds
anti-gang and anti-gun task forces (cut during Bush years)
l.. Allocated $5 billion for early learning programs, including Head
Start, Early Head Start, child care, and programs for children with special
needs
m.. Signed the Credit Card Accountability, Responsibility, and Disclosure
(CARD) Act to protect Americans from unfair and deceptive credit card
practices
n.. Enacted the Making Homes Affordable Program
o.. Boosted credit flow to small businesses
p.. Increased focus on funding for high speed rail
q.. Funded the Community Oriented Police program (COPS)
r.. Appointed first Hispanic justice to the Supreme Court and most
qualified Supreme Court candidate in decades
a.. Secured $5 billion in aid commitments "to bolster [Pakistan's] economy
and help it fight terror and Islamic radicalism"
b.. Foreign affairs experts insist that Obama's engagement with the Muslim
world has been at once remarkable and under-appreciated..."He has been able
to dramatically change America's image in that region"
c.. Led global response to the economic crisis through the G20, obtaining
commitments of $1.1 trillion to safeguard the world's most vulnerable
economies
d.. Established major agenda to protect Americans from spread/use of
deadly weapons, negotiating new nuclear weapon cuts with Russia and
committing to the elimination of nuclear weapons
e.. Signed an executive order banning torture and requiring interrogations
to conform to Army Field Manual Standards and Geneva Conventions
f.. Signed an executive order to close CIA secret prisons
g.. Cut ineffective, unnecessary and outdated weapons programs such as the
F-22, the DDG -1000 destroyer, and Future Combat Systems
h.. Vowed to bring the costs of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq into the
regular budget by 2010
i.. Largest increase for veterans funding in 30 years
j.. Restored the UN Ambassador to a cabinet level position
k.. Signed Weapons Systems Acquisition Reform Act to stop fraud and
wasteful spending in defense procurement and contracting
l.. Helped free 2 American journalists from a North Korea prison
m.. Led the UN Security Council in voting for strong sanctions against
North Korea
n.. Negotiated with Russia to allow overflights over their territory to
establish a supply route into Northern Afghanistan
a.. Reversed anti-worker actions. OSHA announced it was moving to protect
workers from popcorn lung; a serious lung disease caused by diacetyl, the
artificial butter flavoring added to popcorn and other food products. In
recent years, hundreds of workers in plants where diacetyl is produced or
applied to food have developed the rare and sometimes fatal disease,
bronchiolitis obliterans, also known as "popcorn lung." Technically, OSHA
withdrew a last-minute advance notice of proposed rule making issued by the
outgoing Bush administration that could have added two years to the
standard-setting process.
b.. Revoked Bush administration executive order on regulatory review that
enabled political appointees at the White House's OMB to override agencies'
rulemaking, undermining everything from worker safety to environmental
protection
c.. Signed 3 executive orders, including one reversing a Bush order to
limit union representation on federal contracts
d.. Moved to prevent federal contractors from being reimbursed for
unionbusting propganda compaigns during collective bargaining
e.. Signed executive order overturning Bush administration's ban on
project labor agreements (PLAs) on federally funded construction (PLAs set
wages and establish work rules and methods of settling grievances on large
multi-contractor construction projects)
f.. Signed the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act, guaranteeing the right to sue
for wage discrimination based on gender, race, disability, etc.
g.. Extended unemployment benefits for struggling Americans
h.. Obama's Department of Transportation has approved 2,500 highway
projects
i.. Cut taxes for 95% of all working families
j.. Provided over $500 million in funding for vocational rehabilitation
services to help with job training, education and placement
Post by * US *
Post by PrecisionmachinisT
But Obama has 6+ years left in which to reverse the damage.
Yeah, Obama makes jokes too. If Obama lives out this term, he'll never
see another.
Well since you have your chrystal ball out, appreciate tell me who is going
to win next years world series ?
Post by * US *
NAFTA baby. When Clinton signed it the writing was on the wall for this
financial collapse.
" in the U.S., Bush, who had worked to "fast track" the signing prior to the
end of his term, ran out of time and had to pass the required ratification
and signing into law to incoming president Bill Clinton. Prior to sending it
to the House of Representatives, Clinton introduced clauses to protect
American workers and allay the concerns of many House members. It also
required U.S. partners to adhere to environmental practices and regulations
similar to its own. The ability to enforce these clauses, especially with
Mexico, and with much consideration and emotional discussion the House of
Representatives approved NAFTA on November 17, 1993, by a vote of 234 to
200. The agreement's supporters included 132 Republicans and 102 Democrats.
"
Well done.
PrecisionmachinisT
2010-05-19 08:36:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
Well done.
Well thanks then ...

Unless you're being facetious or some shit then of course you can go piss up
a fucking rope....

--
unknown
2010-05-19 12:58:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by PrecisionmachinisT
Post by unknown
Well done.
Well thanks then ...
You're welcome.
Post by PrecisionmachinisT
Unless you're being facetious
No, not with this. It's so good I'm putting it back.
I'd already updated the subject line for it, too.
Post by PrecisionmachinisT
or some shit then of course you can go piss up
a fucking rope....
That fake shit posts using different headers.
Post by PrecisionmachinisT
Post by unknown
Failed to do what?
Failed to keep us safe from terrorism. ( SEE 9/11 )
Failed to bring in Osama Bin Laden dead or alive.
Failed to find any WMD's in IraQ
Post by unknown
Increase his political donations by 10 times per
donor?
Big fucking deal--it's a fact of life.the more popular candidate typically
receives more donations
Post by unknown
Refuse to hire any key staff members with unpaid taxes?
Agreed--he should have personally checked the tax returns of any and all
proposed staff members.
Post by unknown
Refused to bend over for liberals?
Pretty sure the word "liberal" does not mean what you think it means--hang
on a sec I'll check....
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/liberal
Yup, just as I thought....
Post by unknown
Refused to kiss any Muslim ass?
Is not religious intolerance a major contributer to the problems the world
faces today ?
Post by unknown
All things Obama is famous for.
a.. Included funding for "green" jobs in the stimulus bill
b.. Initiated first steps to develop a legally-binding treaty to reduce
mercury emissions worldwide
c.. Dedicated more than $60 billion for clean energy
d.. Instituted "cash for clunkers," getting more fuel efficient cars on
the street
e.. Acknowledges reality of climate change and his desire to work on an
international policy like Kyoto
f.. Emphasized the value of science (not political opinion) within the EPA
g.. Allocated $2 billion in stimulus cash for advanced batteries systems
(for automobiles)
h.. Declared (via EPA) carbon dioxide a threat to health, the first step
towards regulating greenhouse gases under the Clean Air Act
i.. Funded Energy Efficiency and Conservation Block Grant, which gives
$2.8 billion to cities
j.. Put over 2 million acres of wilderness, thousands of miles of river
and a host of national trails and parks under federal protection, the
largest conservation effort in 15 years
k.. Funding a $475 million initiative to restore and clean the Great Lakes
a.. Overturned the federal funding ban for stem cell research
b.. Instituted better standards for comparative research in medicine and
an agency to handle this
c.. Added staff to the FDA and brought back emphasis on science
d.. Allocated over $1 billion to the National Institutes of Health, whose
budget Bush let stagnate
e.. Eliminated funding for abstinence-only education
f.. Signed an executive order repealing the "Mexico City policy" or
"global gag rule" that withheld U.S. funds from organizations that discuss
or provide family planning services abroad
g.. Announced US would resume contributions to the UN population fund for
family planning and more than double the previous contribution made in 2001
h.. Appropriated $19 billion in the stimulus package to help implement an
electronic medical record system
i.. Set aside billions in budget to overhaul the health care system
j.. Enacted Children's Health Insurance Program Reauthorization, providing
healthcare to 11 million children
k.. Established 65% COBRA subsidy for 7 million unemployed Americans
l.. Allocated $1 billion for prevention and wellness programs
m.. Provided $87 billion to states to bolster their Medicaid programs
during the downturn
n.. Increased funding for urban HIV/AIDS Prevention and Awareness
a.. Expressed a desire to overturn Don't Ask Don't Tell
b.. Described the Defense of Marriage Act as "unfair" and "discriminatory"
and said they supported it being overturned
c.. Includes atheists in his definition of Americans
d.. Extended tax credits for mothers to return to college, for tuition,
and for college textbook purchases
e.. Has agreed to make the visitors' lists to the White House public
f.. Signed executive order requiring Guantanamo to be closed within 1 year
and allocated funds/personnel for that purpose
g.. Included provision in stimulus legislation that, for the first time,
supported the ideas of Net Neutrality-like non-discrimination and openness
for the Internet
h.. The administration demonstrated a new commitment to fighting for
change on the UN Human Rights Council by announcing it will run for a seat
next year, reversing the Bush administration boycott
i.. Announced that the U.S. will support a United Nations declaration
urging nations to decriminalize homosexuality
j.. Created office of Urban Policy
k.. Gave Department of Justice $2 billion for Byrne Grants, which funds
anti-gang and anti-gun task forces (cut during Bush years)
l.. Allocated $5 billion for early learning programs, including Head
Start, Early Head Start, child care, and programs for children with special
needs
m.. Signed the Credit Card Accountability, Responsibility, and Disclosure
(CARD) Act to protect Americans from unfair and deceptive credit card
practices
n.. Enacted the Making Homes Affordable Program
o.. Boosted credit flow to small businesses
p.. Increased focus on funding for high speed rail
q.. Funded the Community Oriented Police program (COPS)
r.. Appointed first Hispanic justice to the Supreme Court and most
qualified Supreme Court candidate in decades
a.. Secured $5 billion in aid commitments "to bolster [Pakistan's] economy
and help it fight terror and Islamic radicalism"
b.. Foreign affairs experts insist that Obama's engagement with the Muslim
world has been at once remarkable and under-appreciated..."He has been able
to dramatically change America's image in that region"
c.. Led global response to the economic crisis through the G20, obtaining
commitments of $1.1 trillion to safeguard the world's most vulnerable
economies
d.. Established major agenda to protect Americans from spread/use of
deadly weapons, negotiating new nuclear weapon cuts with Russia and
committing to the elimination of nuclear weapons
e.. Signed an executive order banning torture and requiring interrogations
to conform to Army Field Manual Standards and Geneva Conventions
f.. Signed an executive order to close CIA secret prisons
g.. Cut ineffective, unnecessary and outdated weapons programs such as the
F-22, the DDG -1000 destroyer, and Future Combat Systems
h.. Vowed to bring the costs of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq into the
regular budget by 2010
i.. Largest increase for veterans funding in 30 years
j.. Restored the UN Ambassador to a cabinet level position
k.. Signed Weapons Systems Acquisition Reform Act to stop fraud and
wasteful spending in defense procurement and contracting
l.. Helped free 2 American journalists from a North Korea prison
m.. Led the UN Security Council in voting for strong sanctions against
North Korea
n.. Negotiated with Russia to allow overflights over their territory to
establish a supply route into Northern Afghanistan
a.. Reversed anti-worker actions. OSHA announced it was moving to protect
workers from popcorn lung; a serious lung disease caused by diacetyl, the
artificial butter flavoring added to popcorn and other food products. In
recent years, hundreds of workers in plants where diacetyl is produced or
applied to food have developed the rare and sometimes fatal disease,
bronchiolitis obliterans, also known as "popcorn lung." Technically, OSHA
withdrew a last-minute advance notice of proposed rule making issued by the
outgoing Bush administration that could have added two years to the
standard-setting process.
b.. Revoked Bush administration executive order on regulatory review that
enabled political appointees at the White House's OMB to override agencies'
rulemaking, undermining everything from worker safety to environmental
protection
c.. Signed 3 executive orders, including one reversing a Bush order to
limit union representation on federal contracts
d.. Moved to prevent federal contractors from being reimbursed for
unionbusting propganda compaigns during collective bargaining
e.. Signed executive order overturning Bush administration's ban on
project labor agreements (PLAs) on federally funded construction (PLAs set
wages and establish work rules and methods of settling grievances on large
multi-contractor construction projects)
f.. Signed the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act, guaranteeing the right to sue
for wage discrimination based on gender, race, disability, etc.
g.. Extended unemployment benefits for struggling Americans
h.. Obama's Department of Transportation has approved 2,500 highway
projects
i.. Cut taxes for 95% of all working families
j.. Provided over $500 million in funding for vocational rehabilitation
services to help with job training, education and placement
Post by unknown
Post by PrecisionmachinisT
But Obama has 6+ years left in which to reverse the damage.
Yeah, Obama makes jokes too. If Obama lives out this term, he'll never
see another.
Well since you have your chrystal ball out, appreciate tell me who is going
to win next years world series ?
Post by unknown
NAFTA baby. When Clinton signed it the writing was on the wall for this
financial collapse.
" in the U.S., Bush, who had worked to "fast track" the signing prior to the
end of his term, ran out of time and had to pass the required ratification
and signing into law to incoming president Bill Clinton. Prior to sending it
to the House of Representatives, Clinton introduced clauses to protect
American workers and allay the concerns of many House members. It also
required U.S. partners to adhere to environmental practices and regulations
similar to its own. The ability to enforce these clauses, especially with
Mexico, and with much consideration and emotional discussion the House of
Representatives approved NAFTA on November 17, 1993, by a vote of 234 to
200. The agreement's supporters included 132 Republicans and 102 Democrats.
"
Well done.
President Soetoro
2010-05-21 14:54:27 UTC
Permalink
On May 16, 10:39 am, "PrecisionmachinisT"
Post by PrecisionmachinisT
Punishment without trial doesn't go from being okay under Bush to being
unacceptable under Obama.
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Osama won.
No, Bush failed.
But Obama has 6+ years left in which to reverse the damage.
--
I thought you dumb shit ublerlib socialists wanted o[BEEP]a to be
dictator for life?!? I would settle for 10-20 years in prison.
S***@old.com
2010-05-21 19:19:18 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 21 May 2010 07:54:27 -0700 (PDT), President Soetoro
Post by President Soetoro
I thought you dumb shit ublerlib socialists wanted o[BEEP]a to be
dictator for life?!? I would settle for 10-20 years in prison.
Nope---just to keep conservatives in subservient position so they
can't screw things up.
Ray Fischer
2010-05-22 19:21:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by President Soetoro
On May 16, 10:39 am, "PrecisionmachinisT"
Post by PrecisionmachinisT
Punishment without trial doesn't go from being okay under Bush to being
unacceptable under Obama.
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Osama won.
No, Bush failed.
But Obama has 6+ years left in which to reverse the damage.
--
I thought you dumb shit ublerlib socialists wanted o[BEEP]a to be
dictator for life?!?
That's just projection omn your part. It's rightards who want
a dictatorship - not sane people.
--
Ray Fischer
***@sonic.net
Cheney, Dick
2010-05-16 16:12:50 UTC
Permalink
TRANSLATION:





The angle of the dangle

Is inversely proportionate

To the heat of the meat

As long as the fat of the ass remains constant.
Garlicdude
2010-05-16 17:32:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cheney, Dick
The angle of the dangle
Is inversely proportionate
To the heat of the meat
As long as the fat of the ass remains constant.
No sag of the bag in there?
--
Regards,
Steve Saling
aka The Garlic Dude ©
Gilroy, CA
The Garlic Capital of The World

http://tinyurl.com/2avg58
RogerN
2010-05-16 16:17:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
"The principle that there is a presumption of innocence in favor of the
accused is the undoubted law, axiomatic and elementary, and its
enforcement lies at the foundation of the administration of our criminal
law. . Concluding, then, that the presumption of innocence is evidence in
favor of the accused, introduced by the law in his behalf, let us
consider what is 'reasonable doubt.' It is, of necessity, the condition
of mind produced by the proof resulting from the evidence in the cause.
It is the result of the proof, not the proof itself, whereas the
presumption of innocence is one of the instruments of proof, going to
bring about the proof from which reasonable doubt arises; thus one is a
cause, the other an effect. To say that the one is the equivalent of the
other is therefore to say that legal evidence can be excluded from the
jury, and that such exclusion may be cured by instructing them correctly
in regard to the method by which they are required to reach their
conclusion upon the proof actually before them; in other words, that the
exclusion of an important element of proof can be justified by correctly
instructing as to the proof admitted. The evolution of the principle of
the presumption of innocence, and its resultant, the doctrine of
reasonable doubt, make more apparent the correctness of these views, and
indicate the necessity of enforcing the one in order that the other may
continue to exist."
Fourteenth Amendment: "Due process"
Sixth Amendment: "In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy
the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State
and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which district
shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the
nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses
against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his
favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence."
Fifth Amendment: "No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or
otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a
Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in
the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor
shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in
jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to
be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or
property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken
for public use, without just compensation."
397 U.S. 358 -- The United States Supreme Court decision held that when a
juvenile is charged with an act which would be a crime if committed by an
adult, every element of the offense must be proved beyond a reasonable
doubt, changing the previous standard of preponderance of the evidence.
[1] The case has come to stand for a broader proposition, however, which
is that in any criminal prosecution, every essential element of the
offense must be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. See, e.g., Apprendi v.
New Jersey, 530 U.S. 466, 477 (2000); Sullivan v. Louisiana, 508 U.S.
275, 278 (1993).[2]
All of which support the American policy of "Innocent until proven
guilty."
=========================begin===============================
Confirmed: Obama authorizes assassination of U.S. citizen
By Glenn Greenwald
n late January, I wrote about the Obama administration's "presidential
assassination program," whereby American citizens are targeted for
killings far away from any battlefield, based exclusively on unchecked
accusations by the Executive Branch that they're involved in Terrorism.
At the time, The Washington Post's Dana Priest had noted deep in a long
article that Obama had continued Bush's policy (which Bush never actually
implemented) of having the Joint Chiefs of Staff compile "hit lists" of
Americans, and Priest suggested that the American-born Islamic cleric
Anwar al-Awlaki was on that list. The following week, Obama's Director
of National Intelligence, Adm. Dennis Blair, acknowledged in
Congressional testimony that the administration reserves the "right" to
carry out such assassinations.
Today, both The New York Times and The Washington Post confirm that the
Obama White House has now expressly authorized the CIA to kill al-Alwaki
no matter where he is found, no matter his distance from a battlefield.
I wrote at length about the extreme dangers and lawlessness of allowing
the Executive Branch the power to murder U.S. citizens far away from a
battlefield (i.e., while they're sleeping, at home, with their children,
etc.) and with no due process of any kind. I won't repeat those
arguments -- they're here and here -- but I do want to highlight how
unbelievably Orwellian and tyrannical this is in light of these new
articles today.
Just consider how the NYT reports on Obama's assassination order and how
The Obama administration has taken the extraordinary step of
authorizing the targeted killing of an American citizen, the radical
Muslim cleric Anwar al-Awlaki, who is believed to have shifted from
encouraging attacks on the United States to directly participating in
them, intelligence and counterterrorism officials said Tuesday. . . .
American counterterrorism officials say Mr. Awlaki is an operative of
Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, the affiliate of the terror network in
Yemen and Saudi Arabia. They say they believe that he has become a
recruiter for the terrorist network, feeding prospects into plots aimed
at the United States and at Americans abroad, the officials said.
It is extremely rare, if not unprecedented, for an American to be
approved for targeted killing, officials said. A former senior legal
official in the administration of George W. Bush said he did not know of
any American who was approved for targeted killing under the former
president. . . .
"The danger Awlaki poses to this country is no longer confined to
words," said an American official, who like other current and former
officials interviewed for this article spoke of the classified
counterterrorism measures on the condition of anonymity. "He's gotten
involved in plots."
No due process is accorded. No charges or trials are necessary. No
evidence is offered, nor any opportunity for him to deny these
accusations (which he has done vehemently through his family). None of
that.
Instead, in Barack Obama's America, the way guilt is determined for
American citizens -- and a death penalty imposed -- is that the
President, like the King he thinks he is, secretly decrees someone's
guilt as a Terrorist. He then dispatches his aides to run to America's
newspapers -- cowardly hiding behind the shield of anonymity which
they're granted -- to proclaim that the Guilty One shall be killed on
sight because the Leader has decreed him to be a Terrorist. It is simply
asserted that Awlaki has converted from a cleric who expresses anti-
American views and advocates attacks on American military targets
(advocacy which happens to be Constitutionally protected) to Actual
Terrorist "involved in plots." These newspapers then print this
Executive Verdict with no questioning, no opposition, no investigation,
no refutation as to its truth. And the punishment is thus decreed: this
American citizen will now be murdered by the CIA because Barack Obama has
ordered that it be done. What kind of person could possibly justify this
or think that this is a legitimate government power?
Just to get a sense for how extreme this behavior is, consider -- as the
NYT reported -- that not even George Bush targeted American citizens for
this type of extra-judicial killing (though a 2002 drone attack in Yemen
did result in the death of an American citizen). Even more strikingly,
Antonin Scalia, in the 2004 case of Hamdi v. Rumsfeld, wrote an Opinion
(joined by Justice Stevens) arguing that it was unconstitutional for the
U.S. Government merely to imprison (let alone kill) American citizens as
"enemy combatants"; instead, they argued, the Constitution required that
Americans be charged with crimes (such as treason) and be given a trial
before being punished. The full Hamdi Court held that at least some due
process was required before Americans could be imprisoned as "enemy
combatants." Yet now, Barack Obama is claiming the right not merely to
imprison, but to assassinate far from any battlefield, American citizens
with no due process of any kind. Even GOP Congressman Pete Hoekstra,
when questioning Adm. Blair, recognized the severe dangers raised by this
asserted power.
And what about all the progressives who screamed for years about the Bush
administration's tyrannical treatment of Jose Padilla? Bush merely
imprisoned Padilla for years without a trial. If that's a vicious,
tyrannical assault on the Constitution -- and it was -- what should they
be saying about the Nobel Peace Prize winner's assassination of American
citizens without any due process?
All of this underscores the principal point made in this excellent new
article by Eli Lake, who compellingly and comprehensively documents what
readers here well know: that while Obama's "speeches and some of his
administration's policy rollouts have emphasized a break from the Bush
era," the reality is that the administration has retained and, in some
cases, built upon the core Bush/Cheney approach to civil liberties and
Terrorism. As Al Gore asked in his superb 2006 speech protesting Bush's
Can it be true that any president really has such powers under our
Constitution?
If the answer is yes, then under the theory by which these acts are
committed, are there any acts that can on their face be prohibited?
If the president has the inherent authority to eavesdrop on American
citizens without a warrant, imprison American citizens on his own
declaration, kidnap and torture, then what can't he do?
Notice the power that was missing from Gore's indictment of Bush
radicalism: the power to kill American citizens. Add that to the litany
-- as Obama has now done -- and consider how much more compelling Gore's
accusatory questions become.
UPDATE: When Obama was seeking the Democratic nomination, the
Constitutional Law Scholar answered a questionnaire about executive power
distributed by The Boston Globe's Charlie Savage, and this was one of his
5. Does the Constitution permit a president to detain US citizens
without charges as unlawful enemy combatants?
[Obama]: No. I reject the Bush Administration's claim that the
President has plenary authority under the Constitution to detain U.S.
citizens without charges as unlawful enemy combatants.
So back then, Obama said the President lacks the power merely to detain
U.S. citizens without charges. Now, as President, he claims the power to
assassinate them without charges. Could even his hardest-core loyalists
try to reconcile that with a straight face? As Spencer Ackerman
documents today, not even John Yoo claimed that the President possessed
the power Obama is claiming here.
UPDATE II: If you're going to go into the comment section -- or anywhere
else -- and argue that this is all justified because Awlaki is an Evil,
Violent, Murdering Terrorist Trying to Kill Americans, you should say how
you know that. Generally, guilt is determined by having a trial where
the evidence is presented and the accused has an opportunity to defend
himself -- not by putting blind authoritarian faith in the unchecked
accusations of government leaders, even if it happens to be Barack
Obama. That's especially true given how many times accusations of
Terrorism by the U.S. Government have proven to be false.
UPDATE III: Congratulations, Barack Obama: you're now to the Right of
National Review on issues of executive power and due process, as Kevin
Williamson objects: "Surely there has to be some operational constraint
on the executive when it comes to the killing of U.S. citizens. . . .
Odious as Awlaki is, this seems to me to be setting an awful and reckless
precedent. " But Andy McCarthy -- who is about the most crazed Far Right
extremist on such matters as it gets, literally -- is as pleased as can
be with what Obama is doing (or, as Gawker puts it, "Obama Does Something
Bloodthirsty Enough to Please the Psychos").
UPDATE IV: Keith Olbermann's coverage of this story was quite good
tonight -- see here. [ http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/
glenn_greenwald/2010/04/08/olbermann/index.html ]
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/04/07/
assassinations
========================end article=========================
This is also the reason I'm against the death penalty. There are lot of
bad people in this world. Many should be snuffed but giving any
government the power to murder its citizens without due process is beyond
dangerous.
Osama won. Beating George Walker Bush was simple. Now Osama has beaten
Obama and destroyed the legal framework and underpinnings of our nation
too.
Fear. You sheeple gave up our ideals.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little
security will deserve neither and lose both." --Ben Franklin
--
Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.curlysurmudgeon.net
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I guess being a Kenyan and getting elected based on race isn't a impeachable
offence?


RogerN
PrecisionmachinisT
2010-05-17 03:59:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by RogerN
I guess being a Kenyan and getting elected based on race isn't a impeachable
offence?
Actually, yes....

But Obama was born in Hawaii and his Mother, in Kansas....and Presidential
elections are based on Electoral votes not race...so your post above only
serves to validate your racist tendencies and to further illuminate your
ignorance as to US citizenship requirements.

--
lorad
2010-05-21 16:23:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
"The principle that there is a presumption of innocence in favor of the
accused is the undoubted law, axiomatic and elementary, and its
enforcement lies at the foundation of the administration of our criminal
law. … Concluding, then, that the presumption of innocence is evidence in
favor of the accused, introduced by the law in his behalf, let us
consider what is 'reasonable doubt.' It is, of necessity, the condition
of mind produced by the proof resulting from the evidence in the cause.
It is the result of the proof, not the proof itself, whereas the
presumption of innocence is one of the instruments of proof, going to
bring about the proof from which reasonable doubt arises; thus one is a
cause, the other an effect. To say that the one is the equivalent of the
other is therefore to say that legal evidence can be excluded from the
jury, and that such exclusion may be cured by instructing them correctly
in regard to the method by which they are required to reach their
conclusion upon the proof actually before them; in other words, that the
exclusion of an important element of proof can be justified by correctly
instructing as to the proof admitted. The evolution of the principle of
the presumption of innocence, and its resultant, the doctrine of
reasonable doubt, make more apparent the correctness of these views, and
indicate the necessity of enforcing the one in order that the other may
continue to exist."
Fourteenth Amendment:  "Due process"
Sixth Amendment: "In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy
the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State
and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which district
shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the
nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses
against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his
favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence."
Fifth Amendment: "No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or
otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a
Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in
the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor
shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in
jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to
be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or
property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken
for public use, without just compensation."
397 U.S. 358 -- The United States Supreme Court decision held that when a
juvenile is charged with an act which would be a crime if committed by an
adult, every element of the offense must be proved beyond a reasonable
doubt, changing the previous standard of preponderance of the evidence.
[1] The case has come to stand for a broader proposition, however, which
is that in any criminal prosecution, every essential element of the
offense must be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. See, e.g., Apprendi v.
New Jersey, 530 U.S. 466, 477 (2000); Sullivan v. Louisiana, 508 U.S.
275, 278 (1993).[2]
All of which support the American policy of "Innocent until proven
guilty."
=========================begin===============================
Confirmed: Obama authorizes assassination of U.S. citizen
By Glenn Greenwald
Like I have been saying to anyone listening ; Obama is a neocon
The liberals have been fooled.
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
All of this underscores the principal point made in this excellent new
article by Eli Lake, who compellingly and comprehensively documents what
readers here well know:  that while Obama's "speeches and some of his
administration’s policy rollouts have emphasized a break from the Bush
era,"  the reality is that the administration has retained and, in some
cases, built upon the core Bush/Cheney approach to civil liberties and
Terrorism.  As Al Gore asked in his superb 2006 speech protesting Bush's
    Can it be true that any president really has such powers under our
Constitution?
No. No such powers are given.

Neither does the president have the power to declare war - after lying
to the people - without a formal declaration of war by Congress.

PS: Thanks for detailing the subject, Curly
S***@old.com
2010-05-21 19:22:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by lorad
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Confirmed: Obama authorizes assassination of U.S. citizen
By Glenn Greenwald
Like I have been saying to anyone listening ; Obama is a neocon
The liberals have been fooled.
The policy is overseen by your elected officials

Not so with the Bush administration
Curly Surmudgeon
2010-05-21 23:55:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by S***@old.com
Confirmed: Obama authorizes assassination of U.S. citizen By Glenn
Greenwald
Like I have been saying to anyone listening ; Obama is a neocon The
liberals have been fooled.
The policy is overseen by your elected officials
Not so with the Bush administration
True. Bush lied while violating the Constitution. Obama tells the truth
while violating the Constitution.

Am I supposed to be impressed?
--
Regards, Curly
S***@gruber.com
2010-05-22 04:21:57 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 21 May 2010 23:55:15 +0000 (UTC), Curly Surmudgeon
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Post by S***@old.com
Not so with the Bush administration
True. Bush lied while violating the Constitution. Obama tells the truth
while violating the Constitution.
Sure.

we elect leaders to do what's necessary for protecting us---with it a
notion that in doing so it's within a reasonable constraint of
necessity.

Bush's (tongue in cheek about him being that smart) policies were
self-serving conservative principles that are rooted in some feeling
of moral superority---and power in their hands is required as a near
"right"

I'm at least comfortable that when a "liberal" is in control---that it
isn't a reflection of a belief that it's a right that he can do
anything he wants---but out of necessity

I recognize the tendency to evoke absolute literalness in
interpretation of things----including things like war declarations,
and "rights of citizens"

When a citizen commits a treasonous act outside this nation---then as
far as I'm concerned he'd better be watching the sky
Curly Surmudgeon
2010-05-22 17:51:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by S***@gruber.com
On Fri, 21 May 2010 23:55:15 +0000 (UTC), Curly Surmudgeon
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Post by S***@old.com
Not so with the Bush administration
True. Bush lied while violating the Constitution. Obama tells the
truth while violating the Constitution.
Sure.
we elect leaders to do what's necessary for protecting us---with it a
notion that in doing so it's within a reasonable constraint of
necessity.
"We"?

How about that oath of office: "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I
will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and
will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the
Constitution of the United States."
Post by S***@gruber.com
Bush's (tongue in cheek about him being that smart) policies were
self-serving conservative principles that are rooted in some feeling of
moral superority---and power in their hands is required as a near
"right"
I'm at least comfortable that when a "liberal" is in control---that it
isn't a reflection of a belief that it's a right that he can do anything
he wants---but out of necessity
I recognize the tendency to evoke absolute literalness in interpretation
of things----including things like war declarations, and "rights of
citizens"
When a citizen commits a treasonous act outside this nation---then as
far as I'm concerned he'd better be watching the sky
You skate the same dangerous line as Bush/Cheney did. Revoking
citizenship or Constitutional rights on nothing more than executive
decision invites more of the same disasters they wrought.
--
Regards, Curly
Curly Surmudgeon
2010-05-21 23:57:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
"The principle that there is a presumption of innocence in favor of the
accused is the undoubted law, axiomatic and elementary, and its
enforcement lies at the foundation of the administration of our
criminal law. … Concluding, then, that the presumption of innocence is
evidence in favor of the accused, introduced by the law in his behalf,
let us consider what is 'reasonable doubt.' It is, of necessity, the
condition of mind produced by the proof resulting from the evidence in
the cause. It is the result of the proof, not the proof itself, whereas
the presumption of innocence is one of the instruments of proof, going
to bring about the proof from which reasonable doubt arises; thus one
is a cause, the other an effect. To say that the one is the equivalent
of the other is therefore to say that legal evidence can be excluded
from the jury, and that such exclusion may be cured by instructing them
correctly in regard to the method by which they are required to reach
their conclusion upon the proof actually before them; in other words,
that the exclusion of an important element of proof can be justified by
correctly instructing as to the proof admitted. The evolution of the
principle of the presumption of innocence, and its resultant, the
doctrine of reasonable doubt, make more apparent the correctness of
these views, and indicate the necessity of enforcing the one in order
that the other may continue to exist."
Fourteenth Amendment:  "Due process"
Sixth Amendment: "In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy
the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the
State and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which
district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be
informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted
with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for
obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel
for his defence."
Fifth Amendment: "No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or
otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a
Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in
the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger;
nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in
jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case
to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or
property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be
taken for public use, without just compensation."
397 U.S. 358 -- The United States Supreme Court decision held that when
a juvenile is charged with an act which would be a crime if committed
by an adult, every element of the offense must be proved beyond a
reasonable doubt, changing the previous standard of preponderance of
the evidence. [1] The case has come to stand for a broader proposition,
however, which is that in any criminal prosecution, every essential
element of the offense must be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. See,
e.g., Apprendi v. New Jersey, 530 U.S. 466, 477 (2000); Sullivan v.
Louisiana, 508 U.S. 275, 278 (1993).[2]
All of which support the American policy of "Innocent until proven
guilty."
=========================begin===============================
Confirmed: Obama authorizes assassination of U.S. citizen By Glenn
Greenwald
Like I have been saying to anyone listening ; Obama is a neocon The
liberals have been fooled.
So it seems. Regrettably the sheeple fail to recognize this is the
inevitable blow-back for voting in the lesser of two evils.
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
All of this underscores the principal point made in this excellent new
article by Eli Lake, who compellingly and comprehensively documents
what readers here well know:  that while Obama's "speeches and some of
his administration’s policy rollouts have emphasized a break from the
Bush era,"  the reality is that the administration has retained and, in
some cases, built upon the core Bush/Cheney approach to civil liberties
and Terrorism.  As Al Gore asked in his superb 2006 speech protesting
    Can it be true that any president really has such powers under
    our
Constitution?
No. No such powers are given.
Neither does the president have the power to declare war - after lying
to the people - without a formal declaration of war by Congress.
PS: Thanks for detailing the subject, Curly
You are welcome. Keep the light of day on our elected officials.
--
Regards, Curly
S***@gruber.com
2010-05-22 04:24:00 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 21 May 2010 23:57:46 +0000 (UTC), Curly Surmudgeon
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Confirmed: Obama authorizes assassination of U.S. citizen By Glenn
Greenwald
Like I have been saying to anyone listening ; Obama is a neocon The
liberals have been fooled.
So it seems. Regrettably the sheeple fail to recognize this is the
inevitable blow-back for voting in the lesser of two evils.
No, it's an act of treason that elimnates any protection, by his/their
choice, committed outside the boundaries of the US

I believe (think) that if in the US the application of protections
apply
Curly Surmudgeon
2010-05-22 17:48:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by S***@gruber.com
On Fri, 21 May 2010 23:57:46 +0000 (UTC), Curly Surmudgeon
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Confirmed: Obama authorizes assassination of U.S. citizen By Glenn
Greenwald
Like I have been saying to anyone listening ; Obama is a neocon The
liberals have been fooled.
So it seems. Regrettably the sheeple fail to recognize this is the
inevitable blow-back for voting in the lesser of two evils.
No, it's an act of treason that elimnates any protection, by his/their
choice, committed outside the boundaries of the US
I believe (think) that if in the US the application of protections apply
By that meter any American who travels outside our continental borders
loses their Constitutional rights.

Sorry, that doesn't wash.
--
Regards, Curly
S***@gruber.com
2010-05-22 21:23:30 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 22 May 2010 17:48:31 +0000 (UTC), Curly Surmudgeon
Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Post by S***@gruber.com
I believe (think) that if in the US the application of protections apply
By that meter any American who travels outside our continental borders
loses their Constitutional rights.
If they commit treason.

We try people in "abstentia"---guilty and never had the ability to
confront witnesses and impeach testimony

Their choice---but guilty the same.

Plot, plan, and carry out treason against the US---get whacked

No problem for me.

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