Discussion:
spindle wont turn
(too old to reply)
Scott Smith
2004-07-09 22:55:46 UTC
Permalink
hello all....I have a hitachi-seiki ht 20 that I just cant get the spindle
to turn....whether I'm trying an MDI command or trying to run one of those
FATP programs, I get the feedhold light coming on and that's it.....
all the hydraulics seem to be working...ie the carousel indexes, the chuck
opens and closes, the carousel moves along the ways, etc.but no spindle.....

please help
PrecisionMachinisT
2004-07-10 00:14:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Smith
hello all....I have a hitachi-seiki ht 20 that I just cant get the spindle
to turn....whether I'm trying an MDI command or trying to run one of those
FATP programs, I get the feedhold light coming on and that's it.....
all the hydraulics seem to be working...ie the carousel indexes, the chuck
opens and closes, the carousel moves along the ways, etc.but no spindle.....
Got any alarms lit up on the inverter ???

Inhibit....

Manually actuate any sensors that would logically cause the spindle to lock
out, while looking in diag for the bit change--door switch, chuck close, bar
feed, turret index, lube, air pressure, gear change, ect.......also, maybe
jiggle any relays that could be loose in their sockets.....

Suggest if you can list the exact controller make/ model, others may be of
more help.

Do you have the ladder diagrams from the machine builder ???

Good luck.
--
SVL
unknown
2004-07-10 05:41:39 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 22:55:46 GMT, "Scott Smith"
Post by Scott Smith
hello all....I have a hitachi-seiki ht 20 that I just cant get the spindle
to turn....whether I'm trying an MDI command or trying to run one of those
FATP programs, I get the feedhold light coming on and that's it.....
all the hydraulics seem to be working...ie the carousel indexes, the chuck
opens and closes, the carousel moves along the ways, etc.but no spindle.....
please help
Tailstock fully retracted?
Press and hold the tailstock retract PB for about 5 seconds.

?????


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Charlie
2004-07-10 05:52:00 UTC
Permalink
is the door shut? any alarms? chuck closed? tailstock retracted? tool
at home? Try this at your own risk.
In the MIDI mode

G00 X50 Z50 T0101 S500 M03 (enter)
green button

Charlie
DMurph740
2004-07-11 05:12:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Smith
hello all....I have a hitachi-seiki ht 20 that I just cant get the spindle
to turn....whether I'm trying an MDI command or trying to run one of those
FATP programs, I get the feedhold light coming on and that's it.....
all the hydraulics seem to be working...ie the carousel indexes, the chuck
opens and closes, the carousel moves along the ways, etc.but no spindle.....
please help
Is the confirmation switch on the actuator being made? If the machine has
switchable (I.D./O.D.) chucking make sure the machine thinks the chuck is
closed.

Dan
Scott Smith
2004-07-13 16:34:55 UTC
Permalink
Thank you to those that responded......here's an update
the control is a Fanuc 3T-F....
I have made sure that the tailstock is fully retracted.
I have made sure that the chuck is closed ( Inside or outside clamping
either way it doesnt seem to matter)
Made sure door was closed.
Have tried MDI commands.

What has happened though is that when I input M40 for low gear range, it
completes the cycle, but still will not rotate with an MDI command. When I
input M41 for high range, the spindle rotates very slowly(5 RPM) but doesnt
complete the cycle. And the gear change solenoid valve gets very warm.

I have the ladder diagram for the machine and have been tracing conditions
that way...that's how I came upon the gear range situation...both low and
high range show a 0 bit
Anthony
2004-07-13 21:28:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Smith
Thank you to those that responded......here's an update
the control is a Fanuc 3T-F....
I have made sure that the tailstock is fully retracted.
I have made sure that the chuck is closed ( Inside or outside clamping
either way it doesnt seem to matter)
Made sure door was closed.
Have tried MDI commands.
What has happened though is that when I input M40 for low gear range,
it completes the cycle, but still will not rotate with an MDI command.
When I input M41 for high range, the spindle rotates very slowly(5
RPM) but doesnt complete the cycle. And the gear change solenoid valve
gets very warm.
I have the ladder diagram for the machine and have been tracing
conditions that way...that's how I came upon the gear range
situation...both low and high range show a 0 bit
From that last bit of info, sounds like the gear change confirmation
sensor isn't functioning.
--
Anthony

You can't 'idiot proof' anything....every time you try, they just make
better idiots.

Remove sp to reply via email
Scott Smith
2004-07-13 23:47:24 UTC
Permalink
here's another update...it turned out the gear shaft/piston was slightly
seized up due to lack of use I'm presuming....I unhooked the hydraulic lines
and gave it a tap to get it moving and sure enough it started to change
gears when commanded. I then closed the door and was able to get the spindle
to turn at 300 RPM. However....after a couple of minutes the watch dog mode
kicked in and shut everything down....I'm thinking from having the door open
too long. So now the Z axis wont home and the hydraulic pump starting up is
a crap shoot at best....do you think something got fried and now results in
an overheat condition??
Post by Scott Smith
Thank you to those that responded......here's an update
the control is a Fanuc 3T-F....
I have made sure that the tailstock is fully retracted.
I have made sure that the chuck is closed ( Inside or outside clamping
either way it doesnt seem to matter)
Made sure door was closed.
Have tried MDI commands.
What has happened though is that when I input M40 for low gear range, it
completes the cycle, but still will not rotate with an MDI command. When I
input M41 for high range, the spindle rotates very slowly(5 RPM) but doesnt
complete the cycle. And the gear change solenoid valve gets very warm.
I have the ladder diagram for the machine and have been tracing conditions
that way...that's how I came upon the gear range situation...both low and
high range show a 0 bit
PrecisionMachinisT
2004-07-14 05:50:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Smith
Post by Scott Smith
Thank you to those that responded......here's an update
the control is a Fanuc 3T-F....
I have made sure that the tailstock is fully retracted.
I have made sure that the chuck is closed ( Inside or outside clamping
either way it doesnt seem to matter)
Made sure door was closed.
Have tried MDI commands.
What has happened though is that when I input M40 for low gear range, it
completes the cycle, but still will not rotate with an MDI command. When I
input M41 for high range, the spindle rotates very slowly(5 RPM) but
doesnt
Post by Scott Smith
complete the cycle. And the gear change solenoid valve gets very warm.
I have the ladder diagram for the machine and have been tracing conditions
that way...that's how I came upon the gear range situation...both low and
high range show a 0 bit
here's another update...it turned out the gear shaft/piston was slightly
seized up due to lack of use I'm presuming....I unhooked the hydraulic lines
and gave it a tap to get it moving and sure enough it started to change
gears when commanded. I then closed the door and was able to get the spindle
to turn at 300 RPM. However....after a couple of minutes the watch dog mode
kicked in and shut everything down....I'm thinking from having the door open
too long. So now the Z axis wont home and the hydraulic pump starting up is
a crap shoot at best....do you think something got fried and now results in
an overheat condition??
IMO you are doing fine.

You should be able to actuate the solenoids manually by pressing an allen
wrench into the end of the coil-- there is a hole there just for this
purpose.

Let the hydraulics come up to full temp, and let em run for a couple 8 hour
days if possible--this will help filter any crud out of the system, also
make sure your gearbox lube is topped off if its a wet box--sounds like you
maybe got some sticky mechanisms from disuse.

Good luck, keep us posted.

--

SVL
Cliff
2004-07-14 00:53:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Smith
here's another update...it turned out the gear shaft/piston was slightly
seized up due to lack of use I'm presuming....I unhooked the hydraulic lines
and gave it a tap to get it moving and sure enough it started to change
gears when commanded. I then closed the door and was able to get the spindle
to turn at 300 RPM. However....after a couple of minutes the watch dog mode
kicked in and shut everything down....I'm thinking from having the door open
too long. So now the Z axis wont home and the hydraulic pump starting up is
a crap shoot at best....do you think something got fried and now results in
an overheat condition??
Did you check your hydraulic system's filters & suchlike?
--
Cliff
Scott Smith
2004-07-15 18:15:35 UTC
Permalink
ok....thanks again everyone for your advice..it's been very helpful...
figured out the hydraulic pump issue....turns out 2 of the relays in the
cabinet had been cleaned with wd-40....on power up the residue was starting
to burn causing it to overheat.I will purge the hydraulic system when I do
all the "real" startup chores (leveling the machine,finding centre of
spindle, final cleaning, etc.).
So now I figure if I can just get that limit switch going I should be in
business
Post by Scott Smith
Thank you to those that responded......here's an update
the control is a Fanuc 3T-F....
I have made sure that the tailstock is fully retracted.
I have made sure that the chuck is closed ( Inside or outside clamping
either way it doesnt seem to matter)
Made sure door was closed.
Have tried MDI commands.
What has happened though is that when I input M40 for low gear range, it
completes the cycle, but still will not rotate with an MDI command. When I
input M41 for high range, the spindle rotates very slowly(5 RPM) but doesnt
complete the cycle. And the gear change solenoid valve gets very warm.
I have the ladder diagram for the machine and have been tracing conditions
that way...that's how I came upon the gear range situation...both low and
high range show a 0 bit
john
2004-07-16 03:53:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Smith
ok....thanks again everyone for your advice..it's been very helpful...
figured out the hydraulic pump issue....turns out 2 of the relays in the
cabinet had been cleaned with wd-40....on power up the residue was starting
to burn causing it to overheat.I will purge the hydraulic system when I do
all the "real" startup chores (leveling the machine,finding centre of
spindle, final cleaning, etc.).
So now I figure if I can just get that limit switch going I should be in
business
Hote that solonoid valves will overheat when they are sticking because
the armature(the thing that the coil pulls one way or the other) does
not move into the core of the coil and without that piece of metal
inside the core of the coil, the coil will draw too much current because
its inductance ( ac resistance) is a lot lower, heating up the coil and
possibly melting it.

John
PrecisionMachinisT
2004-07-16 16:40:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by john
Post by Scott Smith
ok....thanks again everyone for your advice..it's been very helpful...
figured out the hydraulic pump issue....turns out 2 of the relays in the
cabinet had been cleaned with wd-40....on power up the residue was starting
to burn causing it to overheat.I will purge the hydraulic system when I do
all the "real" startup chores (leveling the machine,finding centre of
spindle, final cleaning, etc.).
So now I figure if I can just get that limit switch going I should be in
business
Hote that solonoid valves will overheat when they are sticking because
the armature(the thing that the coil pulls one way or the other) does
not move into the core of the coil and without that piece of metal
inside the core of the coil, the coil will draw too much current because
its inductance ( ac resistance) is a lot lower, heating up the coil and
possibly melting it.
Easy way to check a solenoid is by holding a 6in rule, finish nail or
somesuch near to it--the magnetism will draw it closer to an energized
solenoid if it is getting the signal and is not burnt out.

--

SVL
a***@houston.rr.com
2004-07-20 23:09:55 UTC
Permalink
the watch dog alarm usually means there is a problem with the sequence
software eproms. some

What is the specifc alarm on the screen?
PrecisionMachinisT
2004-07-21 05:57:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@houston.rr.com
the watch dog alarm usually means there is a problem with the sequence
software eproms. some
What is the specifc alarm on the screen?
( Below was logged from IRC )

=======
[20:51] <> oh no dont be shy
[20:51] <> if only I knew what it is
[20:51] <> you got something "falling out"
[20:52] <> you get any other alarms?
[20:52] <> -----'s analogy is pretty good see above
[20:52] <> well for starters, first off it takes about 5 minutes of the
control just running power on before the hydraulic pump will come on
[20:53] <> what uses the hydraulic pressure?
[20:53] <> chuck, tailstock
[20:53] <> sometimes the only come on when required.... like a tool change
[20:54] <> how long have you had the machine?
[20:54] <> about 2 weeks
[20:54] <> we bought it off ebay
[20:54] <> you got any prints?
[20:54] <> where are you located?
[20:54] <> schematics and ladder diagrams
[20:54] <>
[20:55] <> oh guess you are a little far away
[20:55] <> about 12 hours ne
[20:55] <> the ladder diagram is your best tool
[20:55] <> the ladder was what got me to get the spindle running
[20:56] <> what control?
[20:56] <> fanuc 3t-f
[20:57] <> does the ladder have the i/o adresses
[20:57] <> I'm not sure....I have 2 other guys who know electronics per se
[20:57] <> I know enough to be dangerous
[20:58] <> the fanucs will show on the diagonistics screen the state of the
inputs, that is what you want to look at
[20:58] <> that's on the back
[20:58] <> a seicos computer
[20:59] <> that's how we've traced the ladder
[20:59] < the thing you got to do is to check what they should be and what
they are.
[20:59] <> there's the first rub
[20:59] <> I would check what turns on the hydraulic pump
[21:00] <> there's only like 3 conditions for it to come on
[21:00] <> pumps normally come on with turnon
[21:01] <> Agreed.
[21:01] <> on this one when you press standby
[21:01] <> yep thats like the hmcs
[21:01] <> Bang.....same time as the drives contactors go down.
[21:01] <> it's almost like it thinks the control power isnt on
[21:01] <> what happens when you hit the standby button
[21:02] <> seicos must be the plc ?
[21:02] <> yep
[21:02] <> if it's good the pump comes on, the heat exchange fan in the
cabinet comes on
[21:02] <> Okay.
[21:02] <> and you can get into nc mode
[21:02] <> you can read the alarms on the seicos
[21:03] <> otherwise you are stuck in fatp
[21:03] <> you got a book on that?
[21:03] <> the seicos takes ~0v and +5v signal and interfaces to +24 volt
control buss.
[21:03] <> well with the ladder comes a list of the u codes and the n codes
[21:03] <> u codes are inputs n are outputs
[21:04] <> or the other way around....
[21:04] <> other way around
[21:04] <>for example u001 is hydraulic pump on
[21:04] <> is that showing an on state
[21:04] <> only if it starts
[21:05] <> or hold down the standby key
[21:05] <> I think n120 is the control power on
[21:05] <> I think n120 is the control power on
[21:05] <> ok then you are lacking something else like air pressure, drives
ready or something similar
[21:06] <> which brings up an interesting question
[21:06] <> I couldnt find an air connection
[21:06] <> that was one of the first things I looked for after we wired it
up
[21:06] <> it might not use air
[21:07] <> Does it have a parts catcher
[21:07] <> but there is an air pressure condition that shows in the ladder
[21:07] <> its probably an option thats not installed
[21:07] <> Parts catcher is usually the only thing that runs on air in most
lathes
[21:07] <> look at the fine print <G> a star on the print
[21:08] <> no but there is what looks like an air solenoid that sits on top
not hooked up to anything
[21:08] <> Hi, --------
[21:08] <> no lines at all hooked to it?
[21:09] <> hi ---
[21:09] <> well a cable that looks like it was spliced in
[21:09] <> at the plc
[21:09] <> ----, I doubting if it needed air, it would start at all without.

[21:09] <> ----, I doubting if it needed air, it would start at all without.

( Wouldnt )

[21:10] <> Somebody hooked up air blast, for mist, would be my guess
there....
[21:10] <> look over the rest of the inputs and see what the drive ready
inputs are on
[21:11] <> Im your monkey--so spank me!!!!
[21:11] <> maybe...there's a couple of similar 1/4 straight fittings inside
the machine right by the top of the chuck
[21:11] <> if you know how to pop the overloads on the drives and reset them
i would do that
[21:11] <> are they relays?
[21:12] <> [21:11] <> Im your monkey--so spank me!!!! I'm going to let your
wife have the honors???????
[21:12] <> DC drives you can just turn em off, IIRC.
[21:12] <> the overloads should have an input to the secios
[21:12] <> but it gives a 401 alarm too maybe.
[21:12] <> mope
[21:13] <> nope
[21:13] <> the only alarm I ever get is that system alarm #4
[21:13] <> the dreaded watch dog
[21:13] <> shoot the dog <G>
[21:13] <> I wish
[21:13] <> and it's intermittant
[21:14] <> it has to be one of the inputs not right
[21:14] <> Long way around things, but Maybe write down any suspect inputs.
[21:14] <> sometimes can sit ready for 3 or 4 hours, sometimes 2 minutes is
a stretch
[21:14] <> then when watchdawg barks, take a look see.
[21:14] <> i would go throught the n inputs and see what should be on
[21:14] <> ok
[21:14] <> loose connection, corrosion
[21:15] <> and when it fails check em again
[21:15] <> we pulled all the relays and cleaned them
[21:15] <> the guts are pretty clean
[21:15] <> if its a relay it probably an aux contact on one of the
contactors
[21:16] <> Any obvious wiring mods in the box?
[21:16] <> nope
[21:16] <> how many pages of n inputs do you have?
[21:16] <> 3 I think
[21:16] <> about the same for u
[21:17] <> most of them are not necessary for turn on.
[21:17] <> can you fax me them or email
[21:17] <> certainly...our office girl has been scanning like a slave all
afternoon
[21:18] <> doing the entire electrical manual
[21:18] <> get me the inputs and i'll tell you what ones to check
[21:18] <> ok
[21:19] <> if you email them make sure you make the subject plain so i
don;t put it in the junk mail
[21:20] <> ive done that once or twice <G>
[21:20] <> This all works out now you gonna hafta make sure the bossman
sends____ a sixpak of moose piss now you hear ??
[21:20] <> a 24
[21:20] <> lol

======

So, what ya got, Aaron???

--any ideas *anybody* has at this point I'm sure will be much appreciated.
--
SVL
Garlicdude
2004-07-21 20:12:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by PrecisionMachinisT
( Below was logged from IRC )
=======
[20:51] <> oh no dont be shy
[20:51] <> if only I knew what it is
[20:51] <> you got something "falling out"
[20:52] <> you get any other alarms?
[20:52] <> -----'s analogy is pretty good see above
[20:52] <> well for starters, first off it takes about 5 minutes of the
control just running power on before the hydraulic pump will come on
[20:53] <> what uses the hydraulic pressure?
SNIPPED
Post by PrecisionMachinisT
[21:16] <> 3 I think
[21:16] <> about the same for u
[21:17] <> most of them are not necessary for turn on.
[21:17] <> can you fax me them or email
[21:17] <> certainly...our office girl has been scanning like a slave all
afternoon
[21:18] <> doing the entire electrical manual
[21:18] <> get me the inputs and i'll tell you what ones to check
[21:18] <> ok
[21:19] <> if you email them make sure you make the subject plain so i
don;t put it in the junk mail
[21:20] <> ive done that once or twice <G>
[21:20] <> This all works out now you gonna hafta make sure the bossman
sends____ a sixpak of moose piss now you hear ??
[21:20] <> a 24
[21:20] <> lol
======
So, what ya got, Aaron???
--any ideas *anybody* has at this point I'm sure will be much appreciated.
--
SVL
Sam, Looks like another problem being solved on the IRC "chat room".
Anyone needing help in a hurry, or just wanting to chat is welcome.

Just a bunch of ragtag machinists hanging out and having fun.
--
Regards,
Steve Saling
aka The Garlic Dude ©
Gilroy, CA
The Garlic Capital of The World
http://www.pulsareng.com/
Scott Smith
2004-07-21 21:58:07 UTC
Permalink
system alarm #4
Post by a***@houston.rr.com
the watch dog alarm usually means there is a problem with the sequence
software eproms. some
What is the specifc alarm on the screen?
a***@houston.rr.com
2004-07-21 22:57:44 UTC
Permalink
I don't have a 3TF Maint manual to look up the alarm, so you need to
call fanuc. This is not a machine side problem. More than likely a
software EPROM or board problem. Fanuc will help you get more
specific.

You may also have machine side electrical problems, but you must clear
up the system alarm first.

mark Lowery
CNC Services

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