Fadal Tool Changing Problem

Z height? Bent tool changer arm? Just guessing, never touched a
fadal. Does this machine have pots? We had issues with a mori seki
mv-40 where the keys in pot were loose which caused the tool changer
arm to get a tool that wasn't oriented so well. We kept looking at
spindle / arm when it was the loose keys in pots.

Post by Mark
Things that have been changed. (These at the suggestion of the Service Tech)
1. Larger air line. Tech thought that the machine might be starving for
air. Air line was changed, but problem still exists. It also happens when
this is the only machine running.
2. Pull studs. This again at the Techs suggestion. Yes, some of them were
worn.

There are at least two styles of them, iirc.

Post by Mark
3. New drawbar. Again, the tech.
Now they want to change out the spindle thinking that the taper might not be
ground correctly. ( This last one has me wondering if the service dept. has
ANY clue. )

I just about blew my brew at the screen on that one. I'd try calling
again and ask for a different tech.

Post by Mark
Keep in mind that the machine is still under warranty, so our only cost is
lost machine time. Fortunately, the work can be shifted to another machine
without a problem.
Any ideas? Anyone else ever seen this problem?

I took my shot at it for openers. I'm fairly new at fixing CNC stuff
so take that in to account.

Wes

--
Reply to:
Whiskey Echo Sierra Sierra AT Alpha Charlie Echo Golf Romeo Oscar Paul dot Charlie Charlie
Lycos address is a spam trap.

Mark

2005-08-17 14:47:21 UTC

There are at least two styles of them, iirc.

Pull studs are correct. We have 8 machines, all Cat40. The two
options are Cat40 or BT40.

I just about blew my brew at the screen on that one. I'd try calling
again and ask for a different tech.

Well, I'm holding on the spindle change, but the drawbar was a fast one.
(under an hour) Remember, it's all on their dime.

I took my shot at it for openers. I'm fairly new at fixing CNC stuff
so take that in to account.
Wes
--
Whiskey Echo Sierra Sierra AT Alpha Charlie Echo Golf Romeo Oscar Paul dot Charlie Charlie
Lycos address is a spam trap.

vinny

2005-08-17 13:12:32 UTC

Post by Mark
Machine (Fadal 4020) is less than 9 months old. Machine had been running
(tool changing) for approximately 5 months with no problems. Recently (last
3 months), during a tool change, the tool will be released from the spindle
with such force so as too knock the next tool in the magazine out of the
"fingers" causing the machine to drop the next tool. This does not happen
with every tool change. Very random.
Things that have been changed. (These at the suggestion of the Service Tech)
1. Larger air line. Tech thought that the machine might be starving for
air. Air line was changed, but problem still exists. It also happens when
this is the only machine running.
2. Pull studs. This again at the Techs suggestion. Yes, some of them were
worn.
3. New drawbar. Again, the tech.
Now they want to change out the spindle thinking that the taper might not be
ground correctly. ( This last one has me wondering if the service dept. has
ANY clue. )
Keep in mind that the machine is still under warranty, so our only cost is
lost machine time. Fortunately, the work can be shifted to another machine
without a problem.
Any ideas? Anyone else ever seen this problem?
Thanks, Mark

Are you running over 10,000 on a cat40 spindle? The spindle belmouths and
pulls the holder in when over 10,000, and it makes a nasty bang trying to
release it.
Plus the pull studs matter, even though lots of people claim they dont.
Make sure their not too tight, they can spread the bottom of the taper, or
do worse things if loose.
If the taper was ground incorrectly, you would proberbly see it on your
tooling.
Are you sharing holders among other machines?
Are you drilling or side cutting when it happens?

PrecisionMachinisT

2005-08-17 15:39:02 UTC

Have that problem sometimes, prolonged heavy cutting at medium and high
speeds.

You can smear some engine assembly lube on the taper shank, should go away
for a while.

--

SVL

2005-08-17 16:51:14 UTC

Mark,

If your taking heavy cuts, or running for long periods at high RPM, the
taper has a tendency to seat itself in the spindle tighter. You have a stack
of bellville washers constantly pulling on the knob, and the vibration of
the cut causes the toolholder to "settle".

With a pneumatic release, you get a gradual pressure build up until the
force overcomes the taper and the tool "pops" out, Haas's have similar
problems. You don't get this with the hydraulic release systems on the more
expensive machines.

My Fadal does the same thing (but to a lesser degree than you describe) with
"some" tool holders. They should at least go to an "air over oil" mechanism,
instead of straight air.

Mark

Proctologically Violated©®

2005-08-17 19:44:05 UTC

Ditto on my 98' 3016L.
You can really feel it when you release a tool into your hand... sometimes,
you get a real shot, like an airgun, sometimes it just releases. Was
wondering about this myself.
Haven't pegged it to specific tool holders, type usage, or just random.
But man, to cause a tool to drop out of those sprung fingers is one hell of
a shot! At least the fingers I got.

To the OP:
3 more months, and all this would be on *your* dime!!
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll

Post by MM
Mark,
If your taking heavy cuts, or running for long periods at high RPM, the
taper has a tendency to seat itself in the spindle tighter. You have a stack
of bellville washers constantly pulling on the knob, and the vibration of
the cut causes the toolholder to "settle".
With a pneumatic release, you get a gradual pressure build up until the
force overcomes the taper and the tool "pops" out, Haas's have similar
problems. You don't get this with the hydraulic release systems on the more
expensive machines.
My Fadal does the same thing (but to a lesser degree than you describe) with
"some" tool holders. They should at least go to an "air over oil" mechanism,
instead of straight air.
Mark

Post by Mark
Machine (Fadal 4020) is less than 9 months old. Machine had been running
(tool changing) for approximately 5 months with no problems. Recently

(last

Post by Mark
3 months), during a tool change, the tool will be released from the

spindle

Post by Mark
with such force so as too knock the next tool in the magazine out of the
"fingers" causing the machine to drop the next tool. This does not happen
with every tool change. Very random.
Things that have been changed. (These at the suggestion of the Service

Tech)

Post by Mark
1. Larger air line. Tech thought that the machine might be starving for
air. Air line was changed, but problem still exists. It also happens when
this is the only machine running.
2. Pull studs. This again at the Techs suggestion. Yes, some of them were
worn.
3. New drawbar. Again, the tech.
Now they want to change out the spindle thinking that the taper might not

Post by Mark
ground correctly. ( This last one has me wondering if the service dept.

has

Post by Mark
ANY clue. )
Keep in mind that the machine is still under warranty, so our only cost is
lost machine time. Fortunately, the work can be shifted to another machine
without a problem.
Any ideas? Anyone else ever seen this problem?
Thanks, Mark

2005-08-17 20:23:55 UTC

PV

Y,know,,, rigging up an air over oil set up for the push cylinder wouldn't
be such a big deal. You're the adventerous one, why don't ya try it ???

Mark

Post by Proctologically ViolatedÂ©Â®
Ditto on my 98' 3016L.
You can really feel it when you release a tool into your hand...

sometimes,

Post by Proctologically ViolatedÂ©Â®
you get a real shot, like an airgun, sometimes it just releases. Was
wondering about this myself.
Haven't pegged it to specific tool holders, type usage, or just random.
But man, to cause a tool to drop out of those sprung fingers is one hell of
a shot! At least the fingers I got.
3 more months, and all this would be on *your* dime!!
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll

Post by Mark
Machine (Fadal 4020) is less than 9 months old. Machine had been running
(tool changing) for approximately 5 months with no problems. Recently

(last

Post by Mark
3 months), during a tool change, the tool will be released from the

spindle

Tech)

Post by Mark
ground correctly. ( This last one has me wondering if the service dept.

has

PrecisionMachinisT

2005-08-17 20:36:49 UTC

Post by MM
PV
Y,know,,, rigging up an air over oil set up for the push cylinder wouldn't
be such a big deal. You're the adventerous one, why don't ya try it ???

<G>

Mark,

The actuator piston is 7.6in long x 4.96 wide......this amounts to a surface
area of 37.696 sq in......

Assuming 120 psi shop air pressure, this gives you 4523.52 psi. of force to
the drawbar......

Going much higher than that will almost certainly cause the aluminum
'piston' to crack, break and leak....

(FWIW, there is a reason I happen to know the exact size of above mentioned
piston )

--

SVL

2005-08-17 22:17:31 UTC

PV,

The object wouldn't be to increase force, only to equalize it. Force can be
controlled by a seperate regulator.

Most of the undesirable traits of the current method are the result of the
springyness (compressability) of air. If the force was constant, and at
90-100% "on contact" with the draw bar, the taper would break alot less
violently.

Regards

Mark

Post by MM
PV
Y,know,,, rigging up an air over oil set up for the push cylinder wouldn't
be such a big deal. You're the adventerous one, why don't ya try it ???

<G>
Mark,
The actuator piston is 7.6in long x 4.96 wide......this amounts to a surface
area of 37.696 sq in......
Assuming 120 psi shop air pressure, this gives you 4523.52 psi. of force to
the drawbar......
Going much higher than that will almost certainly cause the aluminum
'piston' to crack, break and leak....
(FWIW, there is a reason I happen to know the exact size of above mentioned
piston )
--
SVL

Gary H. Lucas

2005-08-18 01:13:27 UTC

Post by MM
PV,
The object wouldn't be to increase force, only to equalize it. Force can be
controlled by a seperate regulator.
Most of the undesirable traits of the current method are the result of the
springyness (compressability) of air. If the force was constant, and at
90-100% "on contact" with the draw bar, the taper would break alot less
violently.
Regards
Mark

I think your idea is a very good one. I had a cold saw with an air over oil
downfeed and it fed very smoothly yet powerfully. It would probably be
necessary to increase the size of the line so that the retract speed of the
cylinder was about the same as it is with air. You'd use a one way flow
control to allow controlled release with a rapid retract. A simple
reservoir made from a short piece of threaded pipe with a couple of reducing
couplings on the ends is all you need for the oil/air reservoir. Very easy
to build.

Gary H. Lucas

Tom Accuosti

2005-08-17 18:00:46 UTC

Post by Mark
Machine (Fadal 4020) is less than 9 months old. Machine had been
running (tool changing) for approximately 5 months with no problems.
Recently (last 3 months), during a tool change, the tool will be
released from the spindle with such force so as too knock the next
tool in the magazine out of the "fingers" causing the machine to drop
the next tool. This does not happen with every tool change. Very
random.
Things that have been changed. (These at the suggestion of the
Service Tech)
1. Larger air line. Tech thought that the machine might be starving
for air. Air line was changed, but problem still exists. It also
happens when this is the only machine running.
2. Pull studs. This again at the Techs suggestion. Yes, some of them
were worn.
3. New drawbar. Again, the tech.
Now they want to change out the spindle thinking that the taper might
not be ground correctly. ( This last one has me wondering if the
service dept. has ANY clue. )
Keep in mind that the machine is still under warranty, so our only
cost is lost machine time. Fortunately, the work can be shifted to
another machine without a problem.

The only real aggravations that I've had with my own 3 Fadals have been with
the tool changer. I get that popping as well sometimes, and we havent'
discerned any pattern. Usually the first tool change of the day does this,
and then it's seemingly random during the day.

I have 2 air cocmpressors running elsewhere in the shop, and a few years
back I put an auxilliary tank behind the bank of Fadals. <shrug> Didn't help
but didnt' hurt, I guess.

I've also changed pull studs, but haven't detected any difference.

Also, 2 have needed new spindles and I don't see any difference there,
either.

Periodically I lightly scuff the toolholder with some Scotchbrite pads to
make sure that the coolant isn't building up. Likewise I do the inside of
the spindle, but take care that you don't abrade that and change the angle.
That seems to help a leetle bit. But it's still a random problem.

BTW, I'm running 2 15s and a 15 XT, both with CAT40 tools. Once we
discovered that a particular machine had actually pulled the carousel up a
little high because of the pressure. We literally hung on the edge of the
carousel to bend it back. Only one of the machines, though, and it hasn't
happened since.

moT

BottleBob

2005-08-17 19:17:43 UTC

Post by Tom Accuosti
The only real aggravations that I've had with my own 3 Fadals have been with
the tool changer. I get that popping as well sometimes, and we havent'
discerned any pattern. Usually the first tool change of the day does this,
and then it's seemingly random during the day.

Tom:

Like Mark Mossberg said, heavy roughing cuts at any RPM, and high RPM
machining that tends to heat the spindle and toolholder are the
occasions when our toolholders "stick" in the spindle and "BANG" upon
tool change.
As far as the first tool change in the morning, when the spindle cools
overnight it's probably just partially acting like a "shrink fit"
toolholder.
Have you tried lipstick that someone suggested some years ago for this
problem? <g>

--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

PrecisionMachinisT

2005-08-17 19:18:30 UTC

Post by BottleBob
As far as the first tool change in the morning, when the spindle cools
overnight it's probably just partially acting like a "shrink fit"
toolholder.
Have you tried lipstick that someone suggested some years ago for this
problem? <g>

Bob,

The assembly lube I mentioned earlier is a grease containing moly disulfide
as a high-pressure additive.

--

SVL

BottleBob

2005-08-17 19:37:36 UTC

Post by BottleBob
Have you tried lipstick that someone suggested some years ago for this
problem? <g>

Bob,
The assembly lube I mentioned earlier is a grease containing moly disulfide
as a high-pressure additive.

PM:

The lipstick comment was facetious, who would actually put lipstick on
their toolholders? How messy do you want your toolholders to be? LOL
Assembly lube is pretty messy too, perhaps some Teflon dry lube spray
might be worth a try.

--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

PrecisionMachinisT

2005-08-17 19:40:59 UTC

Post by BottleBob
Have you tried lipstick that someone suggested some years ago for this
problem? <g>

Bob,
The assembly lube I mentioned earlier is a grease containing moly disulfide
as a high-pressure additive.

The lipstick comment was facetious, who would actually put lipstick on
their toolholders? How messy do you want your toolholders to be? LOL
Assembly lube is pretty messy too, perhaps some Teflon dry lube spray
might be worth a try.

Bob,

I've used both teflon and silicone sprays in the past--that fix isn't nearly
as long lasting as using the ASSembly lube....a very thin coating and wiped
on with a paper rag--basically being all but invisible to the naked eye.

--

SVL

D Murphy

2005-08-17 20:24:37 UTC

Post by BottleBob
Have you tried lipstick that someone suggested some years ago for
this problem? <g>

Bob,
The assembly lube I mentioned earlier is a grease containing moly
disulfide as a high-pressure additive.

The lipstick comment was facetious, who would actually put lipstick on
their toolholders? How messy do you want your toolholders to be?
LOL
Assembly lube is pretty messy too, perhaps some Teflon dry lube spray
might be worth a try.
--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

BB

Lipstick works on collets in a screw machine. I've used it on a sticky
collet more than once.

--
Dan

BottleBob

2005-08-17 20:38:45 UTC

Post by D Murphy
BB
Lipstick works on collets in a screw machine. I've used it on a sticky
collet more than once.

Dan:

I'm sure it does. Do you have a color preference? <g>

--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

D Murphy

2005-08-17 21:08:07 UTC

Post by D Murphy
BB
Lipstick works on collets in a screw machine. I've used it on a sticky
collet more than once.

I'm sure it does. Do you have a color preference? <g>

Red. It goes with my hair. Well it used to anyway.

--
Dan

BottleBob

2005-08-17 21:48:16 UTC

Post by D Murphy
BB
Lipstick works on collets in a screw machine. I've used it on a sticky
collet more than once.

I'm sure it does. Do you have a color preference? <g>

Red. It goes with my hair. Well it used to anyway.

Dan:

LOL I could just picture using red lipstick on our 40 taper
toolholders. That stuff would be ALL OVER the shop, on the benches,
aprons, chairs, computers, toolboxes, etc.

--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

D Murphy

2005-08-17 22:20:41 UTC

Post by BottleBob
LOL I could just picture using red lipstick on our 40 taper
toolholders. That stuff would be ALL OVER the shop, on the benches,
aprons, chairs, computers, toolboxes, etc.

The ear piece on the telephone is always a good spot. Not that I'd know
anything about that sort of thing. <G>

--
Dan

John R. Carroll

2005-08-17 22:25:41 UTC

Post by BottleBob
LOL I could just picture using red lipstick on our 40 taper
toolholders. That stuff would be ALL OVER the shop, on the benches,
aprons, chairs, computers, toolboxes, etc.

The ear piece on the telephone is always a good spot. Not that I'd know
anything about that sort of thing. <G>

Dan,
I'll bet you aren't allowed to play with Prussian blue any more are you :>)

--
John R. Carroll
Machining Solution Software, Inc.
Los Angeles San Francisco
www.machiningsolution.com

D Murphy

2005-08-18 03:55:05 UTC

Post by John R. Carroll

Post by BottleBob
LOL I could just picture using red lipstick on our 40 taper
toolholders. That stuff would be ALL OVER the shop, on the
benches, aprons, chairs, computers, toolboxes, etc.

The ear piece on the telephone is always a good spot. Not that I'd
know anything about that sort of thing. <G>

Dan,
I'll bet you aren't allowed to play with Prussian blue any more are you :>)

Hehe. Once I was trying to give a little payback to a guy I work with and
put some Prussian blue on his phone. He was working on a machine in the
showroom all day and never used the phone. At the end of the day he came
back in the office and I rang his extension (this was before phones with
LCD screens). He says F**k that, I'm outta here. Damn!

Oh well, maybe tomorrow I'll have better luck.

Not so....

The next day I forgot all about it until a salesman came in from the
showroom with a customer and I hear him say "just dial 9 to get out."

Doh! I peek around the corner and the guy has the doctored phone up to
his ear. I'm thinking it was a good job while it lasted, better start
punching up the ol' resume.

The customer hangs up the phone and the salesman starts stammering. Um,
er, eh, uhhh, heh, I don't know how to tell you this but... um, you've
got some blue stuff all over the side of your head. The guy starts
laughing and says "That's funny, we do this stuff to each other all the
time." The salesman is apologizing and telling him he'll find out who did
it. The guy says, "Don't get anyone in trouble, the look on your face
alone was worth it." Then he starts imitating him "Um, er, uh, homina,
homina, homina."

It turned out to be funny, but I was sweating for a while there. I ended
up getting my revenge on the original target but that's a whole other
story.

And I haven't put Prussian blue on anyones phone ever again. The
stereoscope eyepieces are a different story.

--
Dan

John R. Carroll

2005-08-18 05:01:58 UTC

That was a good one Dan. It turned the balance for the day.

--
John R. Carroll
Machining Solution Software, Inc.
Los Angeles San Francisco
www.machiningsolution.com

c***@lycos.com

2005-08-18 13:32:46 UTC

Post by D Murphy
BB
Lipstick works on collets in a screw machine. I've used it on a sticky
collet more than once.

I just have to ask, how did you happen to have access to some
lipstick?

Wes

D Murphy

2005-08-19 01:37:56 UTC

Post by D Murphy
BB
Lipstick works on collets in a screw machine. I've used it on a sticky
collet more than once.

I just have to ask, how did you happen to have access to some
lipstick?

Believe it or not I worked in a shop where we manufactured and assembled a
lot of cosmetics related stuff. The co. assembled perfume bottle actuators
into eyelet shells. We built foam slitters, an automatic machine to
assemble eye liner wands, foam VCR cleaners, built dies for cutting foam,
etc...

One rush assembly job that came in was to assemble sales kits for Avon. It
was all manual assembly as there wasn't enough time or volume to automate
the job. I didn't have anything to do with the job but there were thousands
of little tiny sample size lipsticks around.

A coworker and I used to have lipstick fights. You could blast air through
a hole that was in the bottom and launch the lipstick out of the little
plastic tube. These things are pretty small so they would go a fair
distance.

Anyway I had a few stashed in my tool box. You never know when something
like a lipstick sample will come in handy. Like when the job is done and
you're the only one left with lipstick and an air hose.

--
Dan

Gary H. Lucas

2005-08-18 01:06:32 UTC

Post by BottleBob
Have you tried lipstick that someone suggested some years ago for this
problem? <g>

Bob,
The assembly lube I mentioned earlier is a grease containing moly disulfide
as a high-pressure additive.

Actually Bob it's NOT! A friend of mine was a FADAL service tech for
several years and he told me that it worked well.

Gary H. Lucas

Gunner

2005-08-18 03:37:50 UTC

On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 01:06:32 GMT, "Gary H. Lucas"

Post by Gary H. Lucas

Post by BottleBob
Have you tried lipstick that someone suggested some years ago for this
problem? <g>

Bob,
The assembly lube I mentioned earlier is a grease containing moly disulfide
as a high-pressure additive.

Actually Bob it's NOT! A friend of mine was a FADAL service tech for
several years and he told me that it worked well.
Gary H. Lucas

I keep a lipstick in the tool box for worn 5C collet tapers on old
Hardinges. Works good for releasing AHC collets

Gunner

The two highest achievements of the human mind are the twin concepts of "loyalty" and "duty."
Whenever these twin concepts fall into disrepute -- get out of there fast! You may possibly
save yourself, but it is too late to save that society. It is doomed. " Lazarus Long

Tom Accuosti

2005-08-17 21:29:26 UTC

Post by Tom Accuosti
The only real aggravations that I've had with my own 3 Fadals have
been with the tool changer. I get that popping as well sometimes,
and we havent' discerned any pattern. Usually the first tool change
of the day does this, and then it's seemingly random during the day.

Like Mark Mossberg said, heavy roughing cuts at any RPM, and high RPM
machining that tends to heat the spindle and toolholder are the
occasions when our toolholders "stick" in the spindle and "BANG" upon
tool change.

We got itty bitty Fadals here, BB. But it's a good point and I'll tell the
machinist to have a look out for that kiind of cutting.

Post by BottleBob
As far as the first tool change in the morning, when the spindle cools
overnight it's probably just partially acting like a "shrink fit"
toolholder.

We did assume that much.

Post by BottleBob
Have you tried lipstick that someone suggested some years ago for this
problem? <g>

Yes, actually, although a light lip gloss worked better and went with the
machine color.
Look for our makeover in the new show "Queer Eye for the Shop Guy"

moT

Cliff

2005-08-17 23:35:06 UTC

Post by BottleBob
Have you tried lipstick that someone suggested some years ago for this
problem? <g>

That was for the pig, right?

--
Cliff

Anthony

2005-08-17 21:34:06 UTC

Post by Mark
Any ideas? Anyone else ever seen this problem?

I've seen this same problem on all kinds of milling machines. As SVL
said, most of the time a little grease on the tool holders cures it for a
while. I don't think it's a taper mis-match problem as much as it is a
'perfect fit' for the taper. A little mis-match would make it easier to
knock out. A perfect fit would lock tighter, and be more subseptable to
'seating' tighter. If you pay attention, i'll bet it is worse after a
heavy vibration cut.

--
Anthony

You can't 'idiot proof' anything....every time you try, they just make
better idiots.

Remove sp to reply via email

http://www.machines-cnc.net:81/

Robin S.

2005-08-18 03:42:49 UTC

Post by Anthony
I've seen this same problem on all kinds of milling machines. As SVL
said, most of the time a little grease on the tool holders cures it for a
while. I don't think it's a taper mis-match problem as much as it is a
'perfect fit' for the taper. A little mis-match would make it easier to
knock out. A perfect fit would lock tighter, and be more subseptable to
'seating' tighter. If you pay attention, i'll bet it is worse after a
heavy vibration cut.

At work we manually spot every block into the dies before and after
hardening. I wonder if spotting blue (I think people call it Prussian blue
or something) would be thin enough to detect a "less good" tool holder...

Regards,

Robin

D Murphy

2005-08-18 04:30:58 UTC

Post by Robin S.

Post by Anthony
I've seen this same problem on all kinds of milling machines. As SVL
said, most of the time a little grease on the tool holders cures it
for a while. I don't think it's a taper mis-match problem as much as
it is a 'perfect fit' for the taper. A little mis-match would make it
easier to knock out. A perfect fit would lock tighter, and be more
subseptable to 'seating' tighter. If you pay attention, i'll bet it
is worse after a heavy vibration cut.

At work we manually spot every block into the dies before and after
hardening. I wonder if spotting blue (I think people call it Prussian
blue or something) would be thin enough to detect a "less good" tool
holder...

It works OK for that purpose. Red lead is better. Just try and find that
stuff in the US anymore:(

--
Dan

Cliff

2005-08-18 08:45:39 UTC

Post by Robin S.

Both Prussian Blue and Red Lead are used for exactly such.
I sort of liked to use both ... one on on each surface.
Sometimes hard to see ...

--
Cliff

Proctologically Violated©®

2005-08-17 23:17:37 UTC

Look at all these Fadal owners comin outta the, uh, woodwork! :)
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll

D Murphy

2005-08-18 04:09:13 UTC

Post by Proctologically ViolatedÂ©Â®
Look at all these Fadal owners comin outta the, uh, woodwork! :)

Kinda like fat chicks and mopeds. They're fun but you don't want your
friends to catch you riding one.

--
Dan

Tom Accuosti

2005-08-18 17:49:51 UTC

Post by Proctologically ViolatedÂ©Â®
Look at all these Fadal owners comin outta the, uh, woodwork! :)

Kinda like fat chicks and mopeds. They're fun but you don't want your
friends to catch you riding one.

<snort>

Gotta remember to look in the classifieds for a used Moped this afternoon.

moT

D Murphy

2005-08-19 02:16:22 UTC

Post by Tom Accuosti

Post by Proctologically ViolatedÂ©Â®
Look at all these Fadal owners comin outta the, uh, woodwork! :)

Kinda like fat chicks and mopeds. They're fun but you don't want your
friends to catch you riding one.

<snort>
Gotta remember to look in the classifieds for a used Moped this afternoon.

LOL. Remember Ella Grasso? She had a moped, kind of a twofer there.

I spent a summer vacation from high school putting together mopeds once.
It was during the gas crisis when they had the odd/even rationing. The
mopeds came in from Italy in crates and I would put the wheels mirrors
and pedals on, fire it up and take it for a ride.

Garrelli's, they were two speed and had a restrictor plate to stay under
the 30mph legal limit. If you unscrewed the plate and readjusted the carb
they would do 50. We also sold Vespa scooters.

The owner of the car dealership that I was working for came up with a
marketing scheme. Every morning cars would be lined up for a 1/2 mile or
so waiting to get into the gas stations down the road. He had me take out
a pimped out moped with baskets, tassles, blinkers, a bulb horn and
signs, then hand out free doughnuts, coffee, and moped brochures to the
people sitting in their cars, waiting in line.

Being a teenager, I was mortified by the idea. I couldn't think of
anything more emberassing to be doing at six in the morning than riding
up and down Straits Turnpike on a moped hawking brochures to people who
were pissed off to begin with.

Plus there was a cop directing traffic and I was like 14 or 15. I didn't
have a license and you were supposed to if you were riding on the road. I
was sure I'd get nailed for no license, then they would get me for
working under the table, underage.

Turns out cops like free doughnuts and coffee as much as the next guy and
could care less if I had a license or not. And we sold a boatload of
mopeds.

--
Dan

Proctologically Violated©®

2005-08-18 23:15:49 UTC

I wonder what's more embarrassing, a pimped-out moped or a pimped-out Fadal.
Yeah, and Mama Cass could *move*, bruh, whilst Michelle Philips just kinda
stood there in the breeze, like laundry. Cute laundry, tho.
( Mama/Poppa fundraising retrospective on #13, fer pert near $300--I went
for the motown, for $225, yo. Altho, CA Dreamin was truly Da Bomb. For a
moment, after I slipped back the wife's credit card back into her purse (4
am), I ackshooly felt like a baby-booming fukn Yupster....)
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll

Post by Proctologically ViolatedÂ©Â®
Look at all these Fadal owners comin outta the, uh, woodwork! :)

Kinda like fat chicks and mopeds. They're fun but you don't want your
friends to catch you riding one.
--
Dan

Mark

2005-08-18 11:16:54 UTC

First---Thanks to all who responded!!

Seems the operator had the mixture a little toooooo strong; close to two
times what is recommended. I called the coolant rep and he said that that is
a downside of that coolant (full synthetic). Got the mix down to where he
said it should be and this morning there didn't seem to be the loud bang
when the first tool was changed. Tool had been it the spindle for about 5
hours.

Of the suggestions that were made: The heavy milling and/or high spindle
speed causing a taper lock. I've seen this, but not on this machine as most
of the work is drilling & tapping. Very little milling.

As for the Fadal users coming out of the woodwork......well, for what we use
these machines for they are not that bad. Price and operator ease of use
have to be considered. I can't imagine some of these operators with a Fanuc
or Seimens control, or a higher end machine with a proprietary control.

REMEMBER, When you pay peanuts.....You get Monkeys!

Thanks guys.

c***@lycos.com

2005-08-18 13:45:13 UTC

Post by Mark
As for the Fadal users coming out of the woodwork......well, for what we use
these machines for they are not that bad. Price and operator ease of use
have to be considered. I can't imagine some of these operators with a Fanuc
or Seimens control, or a higher end machine with a proprietary control.
REMEMBER, When you pay peanuts.....You get Monkeys!

Just out of curiousity is a fadal generally equivalent to a haas?

Wes

Tom Accuosti

2005-08-18 15:32:41 UTC

Post by Mark
As for the Fadal users coming out of the woodwork......well, for
what we use these machines for they are not that bad. Price and
operator ease of use have to be considered. I can't imagine some of
these operators with a Fanuc or Seimens control, or a higher end
machine with a proprietary control.
REMEMBER, When you pay peanuts.....You get Monkeys!

Just out of curiousity is a fadal generally equivalent to a haas?

No, it's better. ;-)

moT

Mark

2005-08-18 15:32:41 UTC

Just out of curiousity is a fadal generally equivalent to a haas?
Wes

Personally I can't comment, but I have heard that the control of a Haas is
either the same on the lathe and mill or it's so close that the move from
one machine to the other is a breeze. One thing I have noticed at EASTEC, is
that the Haas' is demoed taking a lot heavier cuts then I've ever seen a
Fadal take. That's not to say a Fadal can't take a heavy cut, I've just
never seen it.

Mark

PrecisionMachinisT

2005-08-18 17:17:13 UTC

Just out of curiousity is a Ford generally equivalent to a Chevrolet?

Much depends on who you are asking.....

--

SVL

Why

2005-08-18 18:13:21 UTC

Just out of curiousity is a Ford generally equivalent to a Chevrolet?

Much depends on who you are asking.....

Well, lets see F**D or Chevy ;)
And F or H <VBG>.

BottleBob

2005-08-18 17:23:20 UTC

Post by c***@lycos.com
Just out of curiousity is a fadal generally equivalent to a haas?

Wes:

The Haas' and Fadals are generally both considered light duty
machines. Fadal now makes a heavier duty machine (beefier castings) in
the 4525 and 6535 series. But like everything, they cost more.

--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

c***@lycos.com

2005-08-18 19:12:01 UTC

Post by c***@lycos.com
Just out of curiousity is a fadal generally equivalent to a haas?

The Haas' and Fadals are generally both considered light duty
machines. Fadal now makes a heavier duty machine (beefier castings) in
the 4525 and 6535 series. But like everything, they cost more.

Thanks for the info. I looked up the fadal that was the subject of
the tool holder thread and my first thought was that it looked like
our haas vf1?.

We just drill and tap steel hubs with ours but in three years I have
been working where I am at, I only had to put a limit switch in and
my coworker replaced the chains for the counterweight and way cover
wipers.

Wes

--
Reply to:
Whiskey Echo Sierra Sierra AT Alpha Charlie Echo Golf Romeo Oscar Paul dot Charlie Charlie
Lycos address is a spam trap.

BottleBob

2005-08-18 19:34:26 UTC

Post by c***@lycos.com
Thanks for the info. I looked up the fadal that was the subject of
the tool holder thread and my first thought was that it looked like
our haas vf1?.

Wes:

A lot of umbrella tool changer VMC's tend to "look" alike.

Post by c***@lycos.com
We just drill and tap steel hubs with ours but in three years I have
been working where I am at, I only had to put a limit switch in and
my coworker replaced the chains for the counterweight and way cover
wipers.

Counterweight chains? Our Fadals use counterweight chains but our '98
Haas VF6 uses pressurized Nitrogen for the "counterweight".

I'd ask if you "broach" those hubs in the machine, but I don't want to
start WWIII, again. <g>

--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

William D. Green

2005-08-20 14:33:38 UTC

Just got a letter yesterday from Cincy/Lamb that the parent of
Cincy/Lamb just bought Thyessen/Krupp's machine division.

So, Cincy, Fadal, and G & L are all one big happy family now.

wd

D Murphy

2005-08-20 15:38:54 UTC

Post by William D. Green
Just got a letter yesterday from Cincy/Lamb that the parent of
Cincy/Lamb just bought Thyessen/Krupp's machine division.
So, Cincy, Fadal, and G & L are all one big happy family now.

Maxcor is buying it.

http://www.wisinfo.com/thereporter/news/archive/local_22178915.shtml

http://www.maxcorinc.com/

=====================================================================

Maxcor, Inc. to Acquire ThyssenKrupp MetalCutting Group: Technologies
completes portfolio optimization -Best-owner found for ThyssenKrupp
MetalCutting

NEW YORK: August 12, 2005 Under its active portfolio optimization
strategy, ThyssenKrupp Technologies has now found a best-owner solution
for ThyssenKrupp MetalCutting.

The buyer is the US company Maxcor, which is based in New York.
Established in 1975 by current Chairman and CEO Mo Meidar, the holding
company concentrates on acquiring and developing medium-size
manufacturing enterprises, mainly in the mechanical engineering sector.
The acquisition of MetalCutting expands Maxcors product spectrum in the
machine tool business.

The sale of the MetalCutting business unit completes the portfolio
optimization of the Technologies segment. In the future, Technologies
will concentrate on the business units with growth potential Plant
Technology, Marine Systems and Mechanical Engineering.

ThyssenKrupp MetalCutting is a group of companies providing tailored,
applications-oriented solutions in the area of metal-cutting machine
tools. It serves customers from the automotive, supply, aerospace,
medical, energy, mechanical engineering, tool and die, mold making and
job shop sectors. The group comprises Cross Hüller with sites in Germany,
England, the USA, Brazil and Korea; Hüller Hille and Hessapp in Germany;
Witzig & Frank in Germany and the USA as well as Giddings & Lewis and
Fadal in the USA. In fiscal 2003/2004 ThyssenKrupp MetalCutting had 2,735
employees and generated sales of around 490 million euros.

The acquisition is expected to be effective retrospectively to June 30,
2005 and is subject to approval by the Supervisory Board of ThyssenKrupp
AG and the regulatory authorities.

ThyssenKrupp Technologies is an international manufacturer of high-tech
plant and machinery. On the basis of world-leading market positions and
innovative system and engineering capabilities, it supplies systems,
facilities, specialized machinery and components together with associated
services.

For more information, please visit www.maxcorinc.com or call Michael
McKee or James Benjamin at (941) 907-3068.

About Maxcor, Inc.
Maxcor, Inc. is an acquisitions and operations management organization
with emphasis on operational improvement and growth strategies. The
company has strong expertise in manufacturing, automation, distribution
and industrial services. Maxcor and its team of experienced professionals
have created value by focusing on quality, performance and customer
satisfaction while taking a hands-on approach to achieving goals.

NEW YORK: 60 East 42nd Street, Suite 2330 New York, NY 10165
FLORIDA: 7319 Merchant Court, Suite B Sarasota, FL 34240

=========================================================================

--
Dan

Proctologically Violated©®

2005-08-21 00:48:47 UTC

Makes me wanna buy from a guy who makes a nice machine in his garage--how
Fadal started, I think. These corporate behemoths just reinforce the whole
fish-in-a-barrel model of society.

Speaking of which, dudn't Home Despot, Staples et al violate some
anti-trust/monopoly law somewhere?

Aw shit, I gotta run, I didn't know it was so late, $tarfuck$ is gonna close
any minute now... how can I live w/o my evening latte??
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll

Maxcor is buying it.
http://www.wisinfo.com/thereporter/news/archive/local_22178915.shtml
http://www.maxcorinc.com/
=====================================================================
Maxcor, Inc. to Acquire ThyssenKrupp MetalCutting Group: Technologies
completes portfolio optimization -Best-owner found for ThyssenKrupp
MetalCutting
NEW YORK: August 12, 2005 Under its active portfolio optimization
strategy, ThyssenKrupp Technologies has now found a best-owner solution
for ThyssenKrupp MetalCutting.
The buyer is the US company Maxcor, which is based in New York.
Established in 1975 by current Chairman and CEO Mo Meidar, the holding
company concentrates on acquiring and developing medium-size
manufacturing enterprises, mainly in the mechanical engineering sector.
The acquisition of MetalCutting expands Maxcor's product spectrum in the
machine tool business.
The sale of the MetalCutting business unit completes the portfolio
optimization of the Technologies segment. In the future, Technologies
will concentrate on the business units with growth potential - Plant
Technology, Marine Systems and Mechanical Engineering.
ThyssenKrupp MetalCutting is a group of companies providing tailored,
applications-oriented solutions in the area of metal-cutting machine
tools. It serves customers from the automotive, supply, aerospace,
medical, energy, mechanical engineering, tool and die, mold making and
job shop sectors. The group comprises Cross Hüller with sites in Germany,
England, the USA, Brazil and Korea; Hüller Hille and Hessapp in Germany;
Witzig & Frank in Germany and the USA as well as Giddings & Lewis and
Fadal in the USA. In fiscal 2003/2004 ThyssenKrupp MetalCutting had 2,735
employees and generated sales of around 490 million euros.
The acquisition is expected to be effective retrospectively to June 30,
2005 and is subject to approval by the Supervisory Board of ThyssenKrupp
AG and the regulatory authorities.
ThyssenKrupp Technologies is an international manufacturer of high-tech
plant and machinery. On the basis of world-leading market positions and
innovative system and engineering capabilities, it supplies systems,
facilities, specialized machinery and components together with associated
services.
For more information, please visit www.maxcorinc.com or call Michael
McKee or James Benjamin at (941) 907-3068.
About Maxcor, Inc.
Maxcor, Inc. is an acquisitions and operations management organization
with emphasis on operational improvement and growth strategies. The
company has strong expertise in manufacturing, automation, distribution
and industrial services. Maxcor and its team of experienced professionals
have created value by focusing on quality, performance and customer
satisfaction while taking a hands-on approach to achieving goals.
NEW YORK: 60 East 42nd Street, Suite 2330 New York, NY 10165
FLORIDA: 7319 Merchant Court, Suite B Sarasota, FL 34240
=========================================================================
--
Dan

D Murphy

2005-08-21 03:10:18 UTC

Post by Proctologically ViolatedÂ©Â®
Aw shit, I gotta run, I didn't know it was so late, $tarfuck$ is gonna
close any minute now... how can I live w/o my evening latte??

You mean fourbucks?

As in the price. Jeez, I need to come up with a racket like that. I wonder
if I could sell tap water in plastic bottles?

--
Dan

PrecisionMachinisT

2005-08-21 03:18:55 UTC

Post by Proctologically ViolatedÂ©Â®
Aw shit, I gotta run, I didn't know it was so late, $tarfuck$ is gonna
close any minute now... how can I live w/o my evening latte??

You mean fourbucks?
As in the price. Jeez, I need to come up with a racket like that. I wonder
if I could sell tap water in plastic bottles?

Dan,

Someone else already done that.......BTW....usually costs more than
gasoline.......

--

SVL

Proctologically Violated©®

2005-08-21 09:01:04 UTC

Post by Proctologically ViolatedÂ©Â®
Aw shit, I gotta run, I didn't know it was so late, $tarfuck$ is gonna
close any minute now... how can I live w/o my evening latte??

You mean fourbucks?
As in the price. Jeez, I need to come up with a racket like that. I wonder
if I could sell tap water in plastic bottles?

Dan,
Someone else already done that.......BTW....usually costs more than
gasoline.......

Ceptin it's *worser* than tap water!! No foolin...

Penn&Teller did a hilarious bit, taking goddamm water outta a 50 ft HD
garden hose, pitching it to yupster rubes as some effing mountain deelight
at an up-scale restyrant (never would fly at a *diner*, bruhs), and
listening to these effing assholes oooohh & aaaahhh--at $4-$8 a wine glass.
W/ idiots like these runnin around, gas should be $8.50/gal.

In the heyday of bottled water, here in the Mecca of Moneyed Morons
(Manhattan), we had *whole stores **devoted** to nothing but bottled
water*--at $5/pint, in the '80s (when $5 really was $5???). Broadway, SoHo,
ekc.
However, even bevies of MMs couldn't keep these stores afloat, what w/
Manhattan rents'n'shit. Ultimately, yer streetcorner drug dealers had a
much more viable bottom line.

Starbucks in 'Merka is not just selling snow to the Eskimos--it's selling
them Yellow Snow, tellin'em it's more nutritious, and of course chargin'em
extree.
Sorta like, well, tainted bottled water!

Pet rocks, inyone?
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll

Post by PrecisionMachinisT
--
SVL

Cliff

2005-08-21 11:35:12 UTC

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 05:01:04 -0400, "Proctologically Violated©®"

Post by Proctologically ViolatedÂ©Â®
Starbucks

I don't suppose anyone else bought a can of coffee recently ....
The devaluation of the dollar .....

Ask your wives. Ask how much a can was under Clinton. Or
a gallon of gasoline.

--
Cliff

William D. Green

2005-08-21 12:53:36 UTC

And, and, and, I bet Haliburton and Cheney have helped China's and
India's economies grow and compete for oil and raw materials with us.

Yep, I knew it was Bush and his buddies all along Cliff, why don't you
try and get a thought from time to time. It does not hurt to think
and reason for yourself you know.

wd

I don't suppose anyone else bought a can of coffee recently ....
The devaluation of the dollar .....
Ask your wives. Ask how much a can was under Clinton. Or
a gallon of gasoline.

Cliff

2005-08-21 13:01:41 UTC

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 07:53:36 -0500, William D. Green

Post by William D. Green
And, and, and, I bet Haliburton and Cheney have helped China's and
India's economies grow and compete for oil and raw materials with us.

It's not a bad idea, actually, IMHO.
They have a right to try to live a better life, just as those in
Africa do.

The problem is energy .... we REALLY need to work on that one,
worldwide.

Invading Iraq is not the answer nor is making threats or
bible thumping.

Working together, rather than blowing each other up,
seems like a better idea to me.

Post by William D. Green
Yep, I knew it was Bush and his buddies all along Cliff, why don't you
try and get a thought from time to time. It does not hurt to think
and reason for yourself you know.

We are still looking into those "WMDs" & the deficits .... not
to mention faith based education, government & science.

--
Cliff

e***@netpath.net

2005-08-21 23:06:42 UTC

The American dollar really is worth-less now. A dollar pays fewer days
of local property tax than it did two years ago - much less than it did
10 years ago. A dollar buys less gasoline than it did six months ago -
much less than it did two years ago. A dollar buys fewer days of
prescription drugs for chronic conditions than it did one year ago -
much less than it did five years ago.
Weimar America.

Save on gas! Shop the http://stores.ebay.com/INTERNET-GUN-SHOW

Cliff

2005-08-22 13:57:58 UTC

Post by e***@netpath.net
The American dollar really is worth-less now. A dollar pays fewer days
of local property tax than it did two years ago - much less than it did
10 years ago. A dollar buys less gasoline than it did six months ago -
much less than it did two years ago. A dollar buys fewer days of
prescription drugs for chronic conditions than it did one year ago -
much less than it did five years ago.
Weimar America.

Latest report: Expect your winter heating costs to rise 20-50% this
winter. If you have any.
Might be worse but global warming may help.

--
Cliff

D Murphy

2005-08-22 03:44:40 UTC

Post by Cliff
Ask your wives. Ask how much a can was under Clinton. Or
a gallon of gasoline.

She said it was a fuck of a lot more than under Reagan. Plus they started
using child labor to pick the beans under Clinton.

--
Dan

Cliff

2005-08-22 13:57:54 UTC

Post by Cliff
Ask your wives. Ask how much a can was under Clinton. Or
a gallon of gasoline.

She said it was a fuck of a lot more than under Reagan. Plus they started
using child labor to pick the beans

Republicans. The child-labor laws seem to have been somewhat
gutted recently, at least in enforcement. Even better if they are
illegals ...

Post by D Murphy
under Clinton.

Monica envy again?

--
Cliff

D Murphy

2005-08-22 04:44:07 UTC

Post by Cliff
The devaluation of the dollar .....

Overall it's a very good thing.

In the 90's we allowed the dollar to get too strong. Asian and European
governments were manipulating the currency markets in an attemt to export
their way out of trouble. The result for the U.S. was an exploding trade
deficit and the collapse of personal savings in 1998. Look at all the
manufacturing that was lost. You can't be competitive with a too strong
dollar.

All of this eventually contributes to the massive goverment debt we have
today. At least the current group of idiots understand currency. Too bad
they don't know how to reign in spending.

--
Dan

Cliff

2005-08-22 13:57:55 UTC

Post by Cliff
The devaluation of the dollar .....

What trouble? Did they have neocons too?

Post by D Murphy
The result for the U.S. was an exploding trade
deficit and the collapse of personal savings in 1998.

A winger's dream come true.

Post by D Murphy
Look at all the
manufacturing that was lost.

Only the next quarter's profits matter and you can make
more by moving production offshore. Nice tax credits from
the republicans too I gather.

Post by D Murphy
You can't be competitive with a too strong
dollar.

Not when you don't make metric prodiucts or anything
much else anyone wants.
Lawyers & politicos ... now if we could find an export
market for them ...

Post by D Murphy
All of this eventually contributes to the massive goverment debt we have
today.

Clinton was paying it off.

Post by D Murphy
At least the current group of idiots understand currency.

Clinton was not running up those deficits.

Post by D Murphy
Too bad
they don't know how to reign in spending.

Don't be bad-mouthing republicans & neocons. They are in
total control now and have your phone number, address,
church membership, credit info, wife's maiden name ...

--
Cliff

D Murphy

2005-08-23 04:20:18 UTC

Post by Cliff
The devaluation of the dollar .....

What trouble? Did they have neocons too?

Economic trouble.

Post by D Murphy
The result for the U.S. was an exploding trade
deficit and the collapse of personal savings in 1998.

A winger's dream come true.

Left wingers apparently.

Post by D Murphy
Look at all the
manufacturing that was lost.

Only the next quarter's profits matter and you can make
more by moving production offshore. Nice tax credits from
the republicans too I gather.

Interesting. So your position is that the value of the dollar has nothing
to do with it?

Post by D Murphy
You can't be competitive with a too strong
dollar.

Not when you don't make metric prodiucts or anything
much else anyone wants.
Lawyers & politicos ... now if we could find an export
market for them ...

The U.S. doesn't make metric products? Pffft. Still no clues, eh? We also
make plenty of products that the world wants. It's just hard to afford
them when the U.S. dollar is overvalued.

Post by D Murphy
All of this eventually contributes to the massive goverment debt we
have today.

Clinton was paying it off.

With overvalued dollars, a hyperinflated stock market, and everyones
personal savings. Also during Clinton's reign, Net investment ( the
balance of investment between the U.S. and Foreign countries)shifted from
the US being a net investor in foreign countries to the tune of 22
billion dollars, to foreigners being net investors in the U.S. by 22
billion dollars. A swing of 44 billion dollars out of our favor. But it
helped pay our debts right? Kind of like a trucker selling his rig to pay
some bills. It helps a little in the short term, but screws him in the
long run.

Tell me, how did all of that work out for American manufacturers?

We know this, the stock market bubble collapsed and Clinton left us in a
recession. With manufacturing nearly tits up, plus 911, it's been a slow
recovery. You can blame Bush for Iraq, of that there is no doubt. But the
economic policies of the 90's and the selling out of manufacturing during
that period can't be blamed on him.

Post by D Murphy
At least the current group of idiots understand currency.

Clinton was not running up those deficits.

Really? How much did the trade deficit grow under him? Massive trade
deficits lead to an increase in national debt after a while. How many
billions of U.S. assets were sold?

Here is something you should read:

http://www.iie.com/publications/papers/paper.cfm?ResearchID=353

It was written in 1999. Read the last two paragraphs. They seem rather
prescient today, don't they?